Thread: Angler - provacative; fish impulsive when provoked

Originally Posted by feelay

Only thing a lure consistently catches, are fishermen! Day in, day out, I'll stick with my shiners!

In some ways you are correct....But, there are VERY GOOD fishermen out there that can make plastic lures that look, smell, and move just like shiners.
Some of the plastics today are highly engineered and tested, and they are made with the best materials available.
But Yes, there are still people and companies that make junk, just to make a buck!
I prefer to use plastics because to me it is more of a challenge to get a fish to want to eat a inanimate object that you have to control.

So, if I may ask...why do you use live bait and have so much luck with it? Is it because the Crappie are just irritated, or reacting to the shiners movement...and they just want to kill them, or drive them off...or are the Crappie trying to eat them?
What is making the shiners attract Crappie?? Are they a normal forage for Crappie???

First off, fish in general know the real thing when they sense it or I should say, as they sense it. No research, just an opinion. They don't know the fake is real - another opinion - regardless of what they look like, taste like or how they move. Let's say that my minnow grub or any flat tail grub is believed to be the real thing by fish and it gets bit more often than say curly tail grubs (which it does for a variety of reasons). Both are assumed to represent a bait fish to a predator but which lure would you use? If one lure is far more effective at catching most species and the other far less so, is it because fish got smarter and more selective over many decades*? Or Is it because of a better lure design/presentation combination that provokes fish more often. (*This assumes that knowledge is transferred genetically from generation to generation...)

In answer to plastics:
My plastics stink because I reheat them over and over - so it can't be the negative taste or aroma.
Florescent pink in lightly stained water clear down to 5' is still bright pink - can't be color realism or color changing to one more realistic (at least not for the big perch and a dozen like it caught that day)
8# test chartreuse Suffix line doesn't seem to bother the hundreds of fish I caught in the last 30 days - guess that was left out of the syllabus of what to avoid in Minnow Elementary School along with avoid sharp objects!

So, if fish only attack lures because they want to eat them (even that really ugly, weird moving Spoon Plug), then the only thing that can be said for using some lures far more often than others is that they excel for some reason. Those reasons, more often than not, involve lure design/action/presentation. Our lot as anglers is to pick & chose those that get bit more often - regardless of a fish's mental process.

Some lures in general may represent some prey animals - in general. But to make a claim that a specific species of a prey fish is at times far more apt to be bitten because it's assumed fish are eating it more often that week, is a bit like saying fish will always turn their snouts up at other minnow species swimming by.

Now, the only way it can be proven is if many anglers partnered up in different boats where one would cast a bait that mimicked a certain fish and one that didn't. Better yet, have ten anglers cast one lure in one color all year long and report their catches. The results would slam the door shut and throw away the key on claims that mimicking is the way to go.

I know, even that wouldn't convince some but at least I tried. For the rest of you still undecided, try my lures or any flat tail grub rigged on 1/16 oz unpainted ball head jig. If you find another lure that does as well or better, stock up! Fish will always bite it for reasons maybe only fish can know and you'll cast it 99% of the time!

BTW (Big dog, big poop - wouldn't fit in a crappy's mouth...plus it wouldn't pass the taste test...)

Originally Posted by feelay

Only thing a lure consistently catches, are fishermen! Day in, day out, I'll stick with my shiners!

Respectively disagree regarding numbers of fish caught in the warmer water months. You'd have to carry along 40 shiners to match my 40 plus fish.

Were all the fish you caught crappie, your pic shows perch and bluegill. Where I'm located anybody can catch 40 bluegill with there eyes shut, crappie are a different story,lol

The great majority were crappie caught in two lakes I fish, though at times I got into schools of perch that yielded over a dozen per school in addition to sunfish, bass and pickerel. Does it count if my usual partner caught as many fish as I using my creation? I'm talking 70 plus crappie between the two of us, with some giant pumpkin seed and red breast sunfish thrown in. Don't know what they were eating at the time, but we never changed to a different design lure. Better yet, both of us caught some crappie over 11" in one school - one close to 15.

PM me your address if you want to try some. Nothing magic about them: cast and reel.

Originally Posted by Spoonminnow

First off, fish in general know the real thing when they sense it or I should say, as they sense it. No research, just an opinion. They don't know the fake is real - another opinion - regardless of what they look like, taste like or how they move. Let's say that my minnow grub or any flat tail grub is believed to be the real thing by fish and it gets bit more often than say curly tail grubs (which it does for a variety of reasons). Which lure would you use?

Long before the flat tail design was invented, Mr.Twister had a corner on the plastic grub market. Most anglers believed and many still believe that the fluttering tail imitates a minnow. But, if one lure is far more effective at catching most species and the other far less successful, is it because fish got smarter and more selective? Or Is it because of a lure design/presentation combination that provokes fish more often.

My plastics stink because I reheat them over and over - can't be the negative aroma.
Florescent pink in lightly stained water clear down to 5' is still bright pink. - can't be color realism.
8# test chartreuse Suffix line doesn't seem to bother them - guess that was left out of the syllabus in Minnow Elementary School.

So, if fish only attack lures because they want to eat them (even that really ugly, weird moving Spoon Plug), then the only thing that can be said for using some lure far more often than others is that they excel for some reason. Those reasons more often than not involve lure design/action/presentation. Our lot as anglers is to pick & chose those that get bit more often - regardless of a fish's motivation.

Some lures in general may represent some prey animals - in general. But to make a claim that a specific species of a prey fish is at times far more apt to be bitten because it's assumed fish are eating it more often that week, is a bit like saying fish will always turn their snouts up a other minnow species swimming by. The only way it can be proven is if many anglers partnered up in different boats where one would cast a bait that mimicked and one that didn't. Better yet, have ten anglers cast one lure in one color all year long and report their catches. The results would slam the door shut, throw away the key on claims that mimicking is the way to go.

I know, even that wouldn't convince some and at least I tried.

Your right, fish know the real thing...they also sometimes know the fake is fake, and they also sometimes know that the fake is real....research shows that!

The Curly Tail grub was engineered and designed to imitate a minnow swimming...research it...Mr Twister himself will tell you that!
A lure design/presentation combination is what provokes a reaction strike to feed....they will strike in defense during the spawn, on the bed, and in other certain situations, but those are very short windows in their life.
Lures that do not work are missing a key ingredient that fish are looking for, either poor or un-natural movement, wrong size, color, vibration, smell, etc. Research has been done on all of this.

Negative aroma come into play when fish are full and being picky, or they are keyed in on a certain food...as said before, smell is one of the last senses used, and sometimes that is when it is in the mouth and they try to spit it out, sometimes too late! Plenty of research on this also.

Name some of the iridescent colors on a baitfish...what colors show up on their prismatic scales...if you read color research, you would see that sometimes color can be a trigger to get them to bite...once they have honed in on a lure, a bight color allows them in certain situations to see a lure better...also in bright sunlight even Fluorescent pink will mute. Again, Research, plenty of it!
I also believe that in all but gin clear water, a fish isn't going to notice a thin strand of colored fiber going through the water, when there is a delicious morsel on the end of it that is acting like a easy meal! That one is just my opinion!

Correct, Lure action and the fisherman's inputs are key to making the lure realistic enough for a fish to want to eat it. There is plenty of Research done on this!

When fish are keyed in on a Match the Hatch situation, they are way far more apt to bite the same looking, colored, lure....when the Mayflies hatch in my lake, you better have a lure, color, or action that mimics it, or you will go home skunked....when the craws first come out fish at my lake are keying in on fresh water lobster...when the yearly shad fry are 2 inches in the Fall, you better have a 2 to 2.5 inch shad lure....Every Fish biologist will tell you of match the hatch occasions....plenty of research on this also! Lakes all over the country have hatch occasions where fish will key in on something and gorge.
Stupid fish in my lake, also know when caterpillar hatches occur, when rising water means worms, and when oak leave tannins hit the water in fall...which is a signal for them to gorge for Winter!

Research, papers on the subject, talking with biologists, working with lure designers, and practical application convince me....then I trial and experiment!

Originally Posted by Spoonminnow

Respectively disagree regarding numbers of fish caught in the warmer water months. You'd have to carry along 40 shiners to match my 40 plus fish.

I usually have a pound with me, when I'm fishing. Way more than forty. I guide, mostly spider rigging 8 rods, 16 shiners in the water at one time. An average year, I'll fillet 3k-5k crappie for my clients.
I'm a firm believer that crappie, unlike bass or other aggressive predatory fish, are inherently finicky. They are either feeding or not. I don't try to fool them into biting.... Meat on the hook, puts meat on the table.

Man, i had no idea Crappie fishin was so complicated. Kinda like rocket surgery! I mean, dang, i knew they were smart, cuz they always seem to shut down right before I get there, but dang!