Thread: Angler - provacative; fish impulsive when provoked

Originally Posted by Spoonminnow

I've sent out half a dozen lures to anglers from this site located in different states - mostly the deep south, and haven't heard back.
If one or more reported how well they did using them catching fish of different species, the argument is settled - fish are fish no matter where they swim and bite lures for a lures specific attributes - none relating to another species or fat content.

I never will buy into the claim that different lakes with different forage require lures that mimic forage species. I've fished at least a dozen lakes in a 60 mile radius and caught fish using my lures in different colors and sizes on all of them. Scientific explanations (again unproven assumptions) are nice but don't load the boat even if all the rules are followed. If you believe feeding is the biggest reason fish strike lures, fine, but where do you go from there? If someone uses a hard lure that mimics a current forage being eaten and catches nothing and someone uses a soft plastic that mimics nothing and catches crappie - what say you to that?

I wish more anglers would take part in a study to prove or disprove either claim and accept some free rigged lures, fish them and report back on this topic. Fish them when you get them and again in spring and keep close track of fish numbers and species caught. But, they must be used as I recommend or the test is invalid - unless you find a way that also works and then report that too. There are four ways to fish them that have caught fish:

under a float (caught a bass, crappie and bluegill today in 50 degree water under a cloudy sky - the plastic was clear with a bit of silver flake)

unsteady, slow horizontal retrieve (best overall)

Drop shot

vertical jigging (my favorite through the ice)

Hopefully the anglers from Mississippi, Missouri and Alabama that I sent lures to this week will post reports. It was nice hearing back from local anglers how well they did and hopefully others will follow suit. Anyone taking part in the study, allow me to post your user names or post them yourselves.

(NY crappie being less picky and fish in other states being more selective - now I've heard everything!)

Whether you want to believe it or not, your baits mimic the size, shape and fluttering of a minnow, fry, or small baitfish...you have also probably hit on a coloration of forage, or something they can easily see, once they hone in on the action.
Maybe you should spend some time netting some baitfish to see what is in your lakes...opening up the bellies of fish will also help you to understand what their prey is during different patterns.

I know every minnow, baitfish, insect, and prey forage that is in my home lake...I have 3 styles of swimbaits (in a few colors each) and a curly tail (2 colors), that will mimic everything in the lake, or colors that can be seen in dirty water....I also can use them to fish at night.
I can tell you that the swimbaits I use, are catching fish in The Oceans and Freshwater, ALL OVER THE WORLD...the common factor with that, is they look, act, and smell, like forage...period...And you can use them under a bobber, with any State Rig, drop-shotted, trolled, vertical jigged, bottom bounced, spider rigged, etc, etc...because it will mimic exactly what you want...all you do is supply the presentation and allow the bait to flutter or swim in many different ways, to attract the fish to an easy meal!
Part of being a fisherman is to figure out what to use if fish aren't hitting a hard bait...IMHO hardbaits have limitations that plastics don't (that's why I no Longer use them)! I don't know of a plastic that doesn't mimic a basic type of forage or their action!
Just enjoy the fact that you have found a good bait and presentation, that fish like to eat!

Questions :

If fish are so tuned in to the endemic "forage" (size, shape, color, scent) of any specific body of water ... why would they strike a lure that in no way resembles such forage ?

If fish are not "feeding" as a rule, but are "provoked" into biting a lure ... what's the provocation provided by a slow moving whippy tailed piece of plastic ? They surely don't "fear" it, else they'd swim away from it. If they didn't intend to eat it, they wouldn't take the chance of getting it in their mouth. If it was their intent to kill, injure, or otherwise chase it away, they'd butt it or nip at it ... not suck it into their mouth.

... cp

I will tell you this though....almost all innovative techniques ,and "hot" lures,and surefire methods usually run their course after a while.Some remain and still work pretty consistently,others seem to fizzle all together sometimes.And some work good for years,but not everyday and under every condition.

First off, they've been around for many years in one form or another and many sources sell thin tail grubs. The only thing I sell on-line is heat resistant glitter to those that make and sell lures - soft or hard. Granted, my design is minnow shaped and looks and acts more like a minnow than most lures sold, but here is one reason I don't sell them:

The newbie I mentioned wasn't sure if he'd see me again and bought two designs of thin tail grubs called Mo Magic and Flap Jack. When I saw him on the water last week, he told me his catch rate went up from 10 fish a day (different species) to over 40 a day on the presentation I taught him using a similar design to my own. Saw him on the water Fri. and he and I caught over 60 fish of different depths, water temp 55 after a cold front (fish turned off) . He also used another design that had a thin spike tail.


Jason's crappie flapper on left and Mo Magic on the right that I produced from a mold.

If you want to believe fish bite this design or any lure because they want to eat it, who am I to say it ain't so. All I'm saying is that there are hundreds of lure designs that go back to the beginning when man started making and using lures to catch fish over 100 years ago and do ya think they thought about designing ones that matched anything?

Do a search on the Spoon Plug designed by Buck Perry in 1946 and it's still catching fish today. Tell me what it matches! It's action is an extremely crazy, wide wiggle that should be ignored by fish, but they hit it anyway, same as Helin's Flat Fish.


When you chose a lure, what's the first thing you base the choice on? Is it the color or the wiggle? If it's lure action first and color second, you've proved my point that a particular action (that provokes a fish) speaks louder than mimicking because most lure actions don't resemble that of any animal that lives in the water. Much of the time lure choice for less cerebral anglers is based on what a buddy is 'killing' fish on - you got to have it! Do you think, 'now let me see... does it look and act like a golden humpback shiner?' before you order ten? Doubtful.

Some lures shine, other don't, some stand the test of time, others are labeled fad lures after the first year.
Senkos still catch fish after Gary Y designed them over ten years ago. Do all copies of the Senko work as well? Not on your life! Imagining what a Senko resembles in the water doesn't change the fact why it works: slow wobble/ tip rotation, a faster horizontal drop rate base on salt added. Case closed.

I'll bet flat thin tails have been loading the boat since they were first designed and used. The best lures have unique actions that cause fish to strike and that's why anglers still buy them year after year. They work in different sizes and colors, but it's the tail action fish impulsively react to, whether hungry or for whatever reason you want to justify their success.

My design in a color I could catch fish forever.

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[QUOTE=CrappiePappy;3067649]Questions :

If fish are so tuned in to the endemic "forage" (size, shape, color, scent) of any specific body of water ... why would they strike a lure that in no way resembles such forage ?

All lures are meant to resemble or mimic something....fish will key in on certain movements, colors, a vibration, etc....but it is the feeding reflex, that triggers the bite.
A spoon does not look like anything in nature to us, but the shine and flutter when presented right, has the movement of a dying baitfish.
Lure designers figure out long ago that a bait doesn't have to be exact...a fishes brain only has to be tempted with various stimuli to make it bite. What we see and what a fish is able to see are not the same....we see a stupid lump of black plastic, they may see a leech....we see a weird brown/orange creature bait, they see a craw....you can go through all baits, like jigs, stick baits, cranks, etc, and they all relate to some type of forage in a fishes eye...sometimes they also feed on action alone, if that bait gives off a vibration like a sick, injured, or dying forage, it will eat.

And yes, lures come and go...designs, action, colors, all improve....but some original designs stand the test of time and are still used today.
Plastics have improved also, scents have improved, colors and mixing have improved...everything is driven by trying to be more realistic in action, or other triggers....why? Because they are trying to make something that effects/affects the fishes basic instinct to eat.
There are also plenty of companies that offer junk, that looks good to fishermen, so they buy it...when they find out the strong plastic smell or lack of action doesn't get fish to bite, they quit buying it.
We are also creatures of habit...ever try to get a jig fisherman to throw a swimbait, or a trollers to cast? Dang near impossible! Everyone thinks they have found the PERFECT way to fish.
I try to be proficient in all techniques, just in case they are ever needed...that is why I use a swimbait....they can be used IN EVERY TECHNIQUE.
As I said before, there ARE times when a fish will strike without the intent to eat, but those times are few throughout the year.
GOOD FISHING
Brent

I have tossed a lot of baits at crappie that came from all the corners of the great USA in testing mode .
that said EVERY one of them had a day and a spot they were THE bait .
sometimes I think it was the color , sometimes it was the flash , sometimes it was the size . sometimes is was the action .
and in several cases it was about the presentation as well ......
feathers plastics and as of late a combination of the 2 .
one thing for certain if you want to ketch crappie consistently you better break lots of the standard "crappie rules" .
there is NO magic bait that works everywhere all the time with whatever the presentation might be ,,,,,
that much I know for a FACT .....

I don't know what all this means. Are you trying to educate us or are you hustling a bait?

Originally Posted by Cane Pole

I don't know what all this means. Are you trying to educate us or are you hustling a bait?

im sold send me a pack of ten

Originally Posted by Cane Pole

I don't know what all this means. Are you trying to educate us or are you hustling a bait?

I'm strictly in education mode...Most fishermen are set in their ways or tied to what they thinks works best for them...they do not like change, so I don't bother!
Besides, you can buy the lure that I use, online and at some stores...if you want to try them!

IMHO, There are 2 kinds of fishermen...a recreational fisherman,who just wants to go out and catch fish and doesn't care why....and a Serious Fishermen who wants to understand the whole BIG PICTURE.
I believe a Serious fisherman, should always check a fishes stomach contents...they should look at the water that they are fishing, and check for minnows, baitfish, insects, etc...a fisherman should know the forage of the fish he is pursuing. And he should know what forage, the lure he throws, mimics....and how he can change the action to suit different patterns.
The thing most fishermen don't understand, is all of the different prey that a crappie can eat....there are so many different kinds of minnows and baitfish, insects, worms, etc....plus a Crappie can survive on many different kinds of MICRO-ORGANISMS...a Crappie is one of the few fishes that has the eyesight and capability to survive on stuff we can't even see.
This is why the size of lures for Crappie can vary so much...some guys are using tiny flies and micro jigs, and some guys are using 6 inch swimbaits....you just have to find your own niche and work with it!
I'm a weird fisherman, I like learning, trialing, and experimenting, and trying all different kinds of techniques...I enjoy using foreign lures and using my skill to get a Crappie to bite it...to me, that's the ultimate in TRICKERATION! But in the end, I always go back to my favorite bait.
GOOD FISHING
B