Thanks Techno, Back to the Knot Blackboard to learn the Surgeon's loop. .. . For real Big Gills > Do I Use the Sturgeon's Loop ? wacky mood today......I was leaving for my morning walk and had Big Thunder & the skies open up for a 10 minute can't see downpour...lol > Sitting here waiting for steady rain to stop...maybe I will put on the old shoes and get the Golf umbrella and Just GO...