Good write up Kevin
Perhaps if time allows we can go out while we're at crappie camp and do some testing, I'm sure Rich would like to see 1st hand how the anchor lock work's
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Good write up Kevin
Perhaps if time allows we can go out while we're at crappie camp and do some testing, I'm sure Rich would like to see 1st hand how the anchor lock work's
Awesome write up Kev.
Yes, I'm willing to head out at camp. It is always nice to be able to compare products. I have a Pre 2017 and, like Kevin said, I would like to pull my 45ACP or 9mm S&W MPshield and put a bullet in it's head when using spot lock. That said, for trolling, the only way I'm getting rid of it is if I can confirm that there is something better on the market.
I really wish these companies would not link themselves with one fish finder technology. As a whole, they would sell a lot more units if they were compatible with Garmin, Lowrance, Hummingbird, or any other fish finder. It is a computer afterall and they run similar operating systems. It isn't that hard for Lowrance to give you an update that would let you hook to a MinnKota if the technologies were allowed.
Speed:
Pound for pound, when you make comparisons between things that are most important when trolling (not just for walleye), speed is probably the single most important aspect.
If we were all trolling in a bathtub where you have zero environmental considerations, speed would be an absolute. Bathtub speed is not impacted by anything. The bait is traveling at whatever speed the boat is traveling at. This is what I would call an absolute value. The thing is, we don’t fish in a bathtub. In the real world there are many different environment variables that effect our trolling presentation. Wind speed, wind direction, current speed, current direction, the previous days winds, waves, and weather, all will contribute to the actual speed of the bait.
We should not be concerned with what our boat speed is nearly as much as the speed that our baits are running. Too slow and floating baits will not effectively dive. Their action is greatly reduced. Baits on bottom bouncers will have a tendency to fall to the bottom. Lead core and copper rigs will not operate at their optimum depth. Conversely, if the bait is traveling too fast, the speed could affect the desired action of the baits. Lipped crank baits might dive deeper than the expected curve, spinner blades could spin out of control, and sinking style lines could plane out higher in the water column.
Boat speed or “Speed over Ground” is utilized as a good starting point. From here we have to rely on a few things in order to ensure that our baits are operating at their effective level. Have you ever been trolling, not catching anything, and then you make a lazy turn and half of your outside baits get hit? If so, you were traveling too slowly. The turn caused the outside baits to speed up. These baits were probably not operating at their optimum trolling speed (under the water). Once the turn was made, this sped the baits up and caused the strike. If however you’re inside baits were to go off, this would indicate that you were traveling too fast!
I know what the next question is going to be: “How do I know how fast your baits are traveling”? Although we will discuss equipment that will tell us this, we must first understand that the only speed we care about is the one that catches fish. Is it faster than our starting point or slower than our starting point? Confused yet? If so, don’t worry, the picture should start to become clear.
As a rule of thumb in the salmon fishing community, spoon fishing was always done at a speed equal to around 2.2mph speed over ground. This was always a good starting point. Before the advent of GPS technologies, we simply relied on our ears to tell us if we were going to slow or too fast. The downrigger cables made a musical noise when running in the water. Too high of a pitch told us we were traveling too fast, too low of a pitch or when the pitch went away meant that we were traveling too slowly. Sure it was a crude science but it did put fish in the boat. Often times we would rely on our ears to get the boats starting point, from here we would troll in a straight line. If we did not get any bites, we would start to make a lazy “S” turn. As stated before, fish on the inside told us our baits were traveling too fast. Strikes on the outside told us we were going too slowly.
Later in life, a product hit the market that totally changed the way we did business. This new technology (although pricy at the time) probably put more fish in the boat and helped more fisherman understand environmental impacts (such as current) than any other product previously designed. I’m talking about the Fish Hawk speed and temperature sensor and probe.
Fish Hawk came out with a dash mounted device that, with the aid of an external transducer, displayed the surface temperate and surface speed. Additionally, you had a probe that hooked to a downrigger and went in the water just above your cannon ball. This probe sent information back to the surface which told the user what speed and temperate readings were at that depth. Having two numbers quickly told the fisherman whether he needed to speed up or slow down to reach his target starting speed (at the bait).
The first time I used this device I was blown away. I set the boat at 2.2mph speed over ground according to the digital readout. I was trolling with the wind when I lowered the probe in the water to a depth of 45 feet. Within a second I could tell that we were traveling way too slowly for the baits to operate effectively. The speed at the cannon ball read 1.3mph. I had to bump my surface speed up to a staggering 3.4mph speed over ground in order to get my baits to the desired starting point speed! The current down below was so strong that I had to speed the boat up way more than anticipated in order to reach the speeds I needed to be effective.
Although I was accustom to always keeping a log book on board, I had never actually plotted speed information. Over the course of that summer I plotted speeds going into the wind, across the wind, with the wind, and every other variable I could think of. I noted when fish were caught at what speed and water temperature. At the end of the day I would go back, look at the wind, wave, and weather reports from the previous five days, and see if I could figure out or predict what the current would be. Eventually, with the help of all of my data, I learned that you could predict with pretty good certainty what the current would be like on any given day (before you ever put your boat in the water). This information became invaluable as I could determine when colder water would be pushed in, temperatures would change, or currents changes that cause movement in fish. I was able to utilize my maps in order to select key areas that fish should be holding in based on wind, wave, weather, and current patterns.
Does one need a Fish Hawk to effectively fish areas? The answer is NO. But you need to understand the effects that Mother Nature plays on surface currents, bottom currents, and the effects it will have on your trolling.
In the attached “Fish Hawk” Photo, the top number is the depth of the probe. The second number is the surface temperature. Below that is the surface speed. The second to last number is the temperature down 101 feet. The last number is the speed the bait is moving at 101 feet. NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE!!!
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TO BE CONTINUED:
Speed: Part Two
With the wind:
The common rule that most people utilize for trolling is to go with the wind. This allows you to utilize the least amount of battery in your trolling motor while providing the greatest overall range of adjustment. Under normal circumstances, this is the recommended method. You can control your speed based on the wind. Unfortunately, this is where many people get lost.
They decide they are going to troll crank baits and they know that they want to start at a speed of 1.5SOG. What they do not realize is that the surface currents might be pushing them slower than the currents residing at the depth of their baits. If there is a strong undercurrent, their baits might only be traveling at 1.1mph. Much too slow to actually get the baits to operate correctly. Obviously, trial and error plays a big part in the fishing equation but I value my time on the water and want to make the most of it. By understanding the effects of the environmental changes, I can quickly see the adjustments that need to be made.
Not catching fish is one way we use trial and error. The problem with this however is the fact that you really don’t know where to go from there. Is it another bait color that will work better? Another sized bait? Am I running too deep? Do I need an entirely different bait altogether? Or, is it simply a speed adjustment that needs to be made?
Before I ever hit the water, I take a look back at the previous weather patterns in the area. I make a note of the last 24, 36, and 72 hours. Was there heavy winds? Did the wind come out of one particular area and then make a dramatic change? Was there big waves in the area and then it all of a sudden the wind died off? All of these factors can play on what the under currents are doing in the water. Understanding the weather patterns before I get on the water puts me ahead of the game. It allows me to know that I probably need to be traveling at a much faster surface clip in order to get my baits to operate effectively.
So, how do I know (without a Fish Hawk) what my baits are actually doing? The truth is that this really comes with experience. The more you fish (and catch fish) the more you will be able to visually understand when the baits are operating effectively. For me, I use both sight and sound as a good indicator.
For planer boards, I know when my boards are operating effectively based on my experience. Dragging too far back in the water is usually a good indicator that I am traveling to slowly. Conversely, if they are riding too far forward, then I am going too fast. My rods (and the line on those rods) make a distinct noise when trolling. Normally, my speed is just below where they start to whine. Once they start whining, it is an indicator that I am traveling too fast. When I am running down rods off the back corner, I know the normal bend in the rod. Too slow and the bottom bouncers drag. Too fast and the rods lay back too far. All of these indicators come from experience on the water. The biggest telltale sign to me however is whether I am catching fish or not!
If I am not catching fish in straight line, the first thing I start to do is make a lazy turn. This will usually tell me what I need to know. If the outside boards start taking fish, I need to bump my speed up. If however the inside boards take fish, I need to slow down.
Trolling in to the wind:
This is probably one of the least used tactics on the water today. The majority of the guys trolling do not use this to their advantage. They prefer to setup at the top of their trolling pattern, make a long troll, reel up their gear, and then motor to the top of their trolling setup. Unfortunately, this often wastes time and, in many cases, trolling against the wind can produce much better results!
The issue with most people is that they think they need to travel faster than what they really do. If the weather has been consistent for a few days, and the currents are traveling in the same direction as the wind, chances are most people need to SLOW DOWN when trolling in to the wind. In the previous Fish Hawk Photo in chapter one, I told everyone to make a note of the surface speed and the bottom speed. This tells me that the user in this demonstration was traveling in to the wind. His boat speed on top was slower than his bait speed on the bottom. Those currents on the bottom have an opposite reaction to the speed on the top. If I was traveling at 1.5 going in to the wind, chances are, my baits on the bottom might be more than 2.1mph. Way too fast for what I am trying to accomplish.
I’ve caught more fish going in to the wind than going with the wind if that tells you anything! The key here is to have something that can push you. Whether it is your big motor or a kicker motor, the advantages of gasoline propulsion are huge. I’ve fished like this with an electric trolling motor and had to cut many trips short due to loss in battery life. Although I am traveling slower on the surface, my trolling motor still has to work harder to keep my boat moving forward. Again, visual cues are what I commonly use to tell correct speed.
Side cutting the wind:
Some professional anglers (and outdoor writers) will tell you that this is a no-no. These are the same people that tell you that trolling in to the wind is a no-no. In most cases however, these guys have never utilized a Fish Hawk. They don’t have experience or understanding of the effects of bottom currents.
If I were to use their theories, there would be several areas on any given day (based on the wind) that I would not be able to target or fish. Fortunately, I do not agree with this. If I have a fishing area that runs North and South and the wind is out of the East, their theory would be that I could not effectively fish this area!
Knowing and understanding what the currents are doing on any given day will allow you to setup for a troll in these areas and effectively target the fish. Who cares what the wind is doing? Sure, in the above example, one side of my boat might be traveling at a slower speed. Heck, they might even get pushed to one side or the other. By moving my boat slightly, I can still put all of my baits in the location I want to be at.
Use the weather tools to your advantage. Take note of the previous day’s weather, wind, and waves. Watch your lures when you set them out, watch your planner boards, watch your rods, and listen to the noises. It isn’t hard to determine what the bottom is doing if you have visual cues to reference. Knowing and understanding speed versus current is the number one thing when putting walleye in the boat. Having a starting point and knowing the factors gives you the best possible odds to understand the bottom, what the water is doing, and how to effectively fish the area.
Example:
I wake up at 4am and wipe the sleep from my eyes. I put on my slippers, grab an energy drink, and slide in to my arm chair. I take a look at the weather buoy and note that the winds are light out of the North and the waves are less than 1 foot. The current down 20 feet is coming from the Southwest at a little more than 2.3mph. I know that they have had some serious wind conditions over the last several days with high winds from the Southwest. Today is the first day that the weather is favorable to fish.
I arrive at the ramp shortly before 7am. The sky is clear with a light breeze in my face when I head out of the boat out of the harbor and set my heading at 280 degrees. I turn on my VHF radio and put the power down. I’m to my first fishing spot in a little more than 10 minutes.
I setup from the Northeast and prepare to troll southwest. My plan is to fish a spread of 8 crank baits on planer boards. I set my speed at 1.2 mph SOG. I do this because I know there is currently a strong 2.3mph current running from the southwest. I take note of the first board that hits the water. I adjust down to a speed of 1.0. Before I can get my third bait in the water, my first board goes off and I am rewarded with a healthy walleye.
This scenario repeats itself for the next few hours. I never did manage to get all my rods in the water. With 24 fish, we are done for the day. As we are packing gear I happen to catch a comment on the radio followed by more chatter. Everyone is having extreme difficulty catching fish. I was not alone in the area I was fishing. There were several boats all around me. I was not on a hot school of fish. In fact, I never even turned around. I kept the boat traveling the same direction the entire time.
Guys start talking about color, and depth, and setback, and that the fish just are not biting. One guy says he is traveling at 1.6mph. He said he has tried several speeds and no luck. He is traveling with the wind so he assumes he needs to speed up. As I put my last rod in the locker, I come on the radio. I tell everyone to SLOW DOWN. I advise them of a big current traveling in the opposite direction. I flip the radio off and head for the dock.
Later in the day I hear that “The fish turned on”. The truth is, the current finally switched around to the direction the wind was blowing. They were finally trolling the correct speed to match their baits. It didn’t have anything to do with the fish turning on or off. Just a matter of them not understanding the environmental effects that had been caused by several days of wind and waves traveling in the opposite direction.
So Rich, or Kevin, Jimmy,
Since you are our GO_TO Walleye guys, I was reading (I know, get off the floor and back in your chair, I can actually READ) and found this interesting, and wanted your take.
Crankbait Vibration For Walleyes - In-Fisherman
In this article they talk about snaps for your cranks. I was doing some research because, on my one and only trip to Saginaw, Gramps actually hooked into line that still had a fish on it, and it was with a DDHJ, but was attached with a DUO Lock Snap. In the very first picture, they show TWO DUO Lock snaps in use on the single crank. (Later they mention that it reduces dive curve as well) Even though I caught some using a single barrel swivel snap, would this DUO Lock snap be more effective?
Although they talk about vibration, etc via Lead Core, the same can be produced via proper line, and lure action I would think. They also mention 30 foot leaders, as short Mono leaders will "Deaden the Action" of the lure. That's quickly enough rectified by adding a 30 foot Mono leader to anyone running Braided line.
Tie directly to a Berkly Flicker Shad (And others, and assuming Flicker Minnows would be included) reduces vibration as well.
This whole question came to me last night while looking at the DDHJ, and the Duo Snap, and removing the snaps I bought that I thought were junk.
No one that I have read has said to remove the split rings, and only one person has said to replace the split rings with the oval split rings to Duo Lock Snap for increased or more improved action.
Thoughts?
OE
I read the article. I agree with some of the information. Some of it I found to be junk and others of it I simply discarded.
When trolling cranks for walleye, I only use DuoLock snaps. I do this for several reasons. One is that the bait does not rotate. If it rotated, it would cause line twist without a swivel. Two, the majority of our target fish don't barrel roll. You will know what I am talking about when you hook a drum, white bass, or channel cat. They like to roll in the water which causes line twist! The DuoLock has the largest overall design to allow for free movement of the lip of the bait. Snaps tend to have a slight bend at the end which creates a pinch point.
Rapala actually has reference to a special knot that allows for free movement of the bait. Because of this, I prefer to have a DuoLock to more closely immitate this loose connection.
As far as split rings, I have some history and information on that as well. During my Salmon days, I was talking to Pete over at Dream Weaver (before he passed). We were having a discussion with several other charter captains about split rings. EVERY one of them added split rings to ANY bait that came without them. I asked Pete why Dream Weaver seemed to be one of the only companies that they came with. He simply said "Other's were Lazy". Our lures operate best with the split rings. That said, all spoons are so similar that they should operate the same so others should have them.
That said, I look at it this way regarding cranks: These companies test them with what they come with. In theory, anything could cause issues with fish biting (IE Vibration). Whenever I want to get that finite in the details, I think I'll find another hobby!
As for tying a leader to my braid, I think that quickly negates the whole point of using braid to begin with. Dive curves are created with braid OR mono. Mixing an matching is a recipe for disaster in regards to dive curve.
Lots of variables here. Vibration can becaused from the motor on your boat, the wind blowing across your rod, static electricity when there is high humidity in the air, running a planer board or not running one, and so on down the line.
Tip of the week:
Oftentimes, when you first get to an area, your fishfinder lights up with fish. This can be the best time to capitalize on putting fish in the boat before they become boat wary. I've had this happen too many times to count. I get to a spot, and before I can get my entire spread in the water, I have two or three fish in the livewell. It finally dawned on me the reason why and I am going to share it with you. This is a trick that both Kevin and I used as well as my dad and I used during tournement fishing. One that I do not see many people do in a tournament.
My goal when I get on a location is to get a bait in the water as quick as possible. Although my plan might be to run ALL crankbaits, the reality is that they take time to get in the water. The majority of the guys we fished against have three people in the boat. They can get rods in the water fast. Kevin and I both only had two guys in the boat yet we are still dealing with the same number of lines (6).
When I get to a spot, the FIRST two rods I put in the water are over the side or "down" rods. These have 3oz bottom bouncers and crawler harnesses on them. Within a few seconds my partner and I can have two baits in the strike zone. Once these are down, we both start setting our outside boards. Usually, before we can get both of them set, we have a fish banging one of the bouncers. Once we each get our second offering in the water, we will then decide whether we pull our bouncers or keep them running.
The key to all of this is that we got two baits in the water within 30 seconds of finding and marking fish. I can run crank baits pretty quick but not in 30 seconds! Next time you hit the water, make sure you have a down rod ready to go. Put that one in the water first while you are adjusting your speed and getting ready to set your planer boards. You will be surprised at how many fish you pickup before you get your entire spread out!
I have to agree to this, as I fish mostly by myself and generally always run bb without planer boards, sometimes. I will try planer boards if the fish are not bitting good ad we knowv with heavey boat traffic fish become spooky or clear water
For me with 3 lines that's the only advantage using planer boards, I hate setting boards when the farm animals are out
This is kind of scary, I got a call from Kevin last night, and we discussed every thing from Walleye, to Salmon, Saginaw to Lake Mi, Water Clarity, and Muskegon. Gee, I think the only thing we did not discuss, was "Where's Becky?"
I kind of do that same with Salmon, Down riggers go down first as they are the fastest to get in the water. However a Slide diver can get in the water quicker, but takes longer to deploy to desired depth.
So its a toss up, start a diver slowly, and then a rigger or riggers then divers then planers.
We found that Kevin's schedule in evenings is kind of like mine, so there might be a report in the future.............
So a few things I learned over the weekend.
1, I need more HUK Gear to prevent Sun burn,
2, I would like a bigger boat,
3, 3 is to many people in the cockpit of my boat. Now this might be mitigated by a crew of other fisherman who know what they are doing, but my Wife, & Granpa, Well, lets just say it was crowded.
4, Rod holder are installed for a purpose, put the rods back in them....... :)
OK, Now on to what I learned fishing.
If needed offset the contour lines for the proper depth. My Graph was about 5 foot off. Once corrected, it was sweet, and accurate, across most of the Bay.
My Lake master chip does not have Saginaw River, nor Saginaw Bay in HD. I found that a surprise. I actually flipped over the the XT Contour for the Sag River.
For the Bay though, once I found a depth I preferred I liked that I could highlight that depth, and cover a vast area of that depth only. I highlighted 18 to 21 foot of water.
Bottom bouncers do not need to be out 103 foot. However, the second time I used them I tried the let it bounce (At least I think I did) and caught less fish, than 103 foot of line. (That's funny right there)
I still caught in both methods, but when I tried it the second time, I was alone, so I had 2 Planers, and the BB I was testing.
I was able to catch them on Slow Death #2 Red Hooks, (not sure if hook color matters if its all covered by worm, but it was what I was told to use, so I did) The Super Death hooks nickle color, #2 worked just as well.
I have read about crawler harness, and colored blades, etc. Steve actually offered me his extensive collection, but timing to acquire them just didn't work out.
There may be a place for them, but I was fine without them. I'm not a tournament, but I got fish on the Death hooks, minus the colored blades.
10 Foot Salmon rods designed for Dipsy Divers are Walleye Fish Lip Rippers. I used them for the length to clear other poles. Gramps used them to rip the lips off the fish.
He would grab a rod that had a fish, set the hook like he was Babe Ruth, and reel in lips. once he even broke a hook. that was funny.
Switched those reels over to my down rigger rods, and it was much better.
Calibrated Reels are only as precise as you make them once on the water. Counting out 81 foot while in the Rod holder may say 81 foot, but it wont be once you are in the water.
I solved that quickly when I realized I could start my Flicker from the rod tip, just on the surface of the water. Then count out 81 foot (Target Depth). This removed any error of slack.
I then add an addition foot, to 82, then lock the bail attach the Planer board to that additional foot of line at the rod tip, and be exactly at 81 foot.
If it doesn't make sense to you, it does to me in my Pollock mind, and was more precise for me.
Planer Boards them selves, Day one had no tangles. Planer boards all set and in a line from the cockpit are easy to see one drop back from smaller fish. The key was to get them in-line, for my vision.
I found a had quite a few stragglers, that were happy to swim along and not make the flags move (Flags were set LOW tension, so you would think that they would go off and tattle but nope. Most all of those were tossed back, I think once was just swimming along enjoying the cruise.
Day 2 was a nightmare.
Inside board was no issue. the outside board was the issue (maybe the user as well) The Out B, would clear the In B, but the Flicker would collect the In Board line between the In Board, and its Flicker.
I could reel it in, unwrap the line, and send the In Board, flicker back out and it would reset. Fish that stayed LOW, would do the same thing as well.
Day 3 more testing, I would release the Out Board, and let it fall back into line right behind the boat, reel it in, and sure enough the Out Board Flicker would collect the In Board, line between the In Board, & its Flicker. I think I was getting messed with from some currents maybe. There seemed to be a difference between the current, and the winds, I sent back a Flicker and aligned it so that it was going straight back, regardless of the wind, and that seems to HELP, but I still had 2 tangles, but both were with Fish on the line.
Down Rods with BB at the corners is WAY BETTER than long lines, in an attempt to reduce tangles.
I would not try to run 3 boards on a side just yet, until I get a better feel for what I am doing, and or doing wrong.
Lastly, an outside Board with a fish, that Grandpa reels in when the flag goes down, and tangles into the Inside board and he keeps cranking, and is not only, fighting the fish, but now the inside board as well, and the outside board, a mess of line, will be forever known as a Master Angler Walleye. Probably a STATE RECORD. "I'm Pretty sure it was a STATE RECORD" he was heard telling any one who would listen when we got back to the house, and at Lucky's Steakhouse, Meijer's, the gas station, and numerous phone call's to others, for the rest of the night
He never saw the fish, I never saw the fish, but he KNOWS it was a Master Angler Fish. So If you get a mess of line, 2 Boards messed together, just know your fighting what feels like a Master Angler Walleye. Gramp's says so.
It was his story, I did't have the heart to tell him, that great big yank he felt when it started FIGHTING even more, really hard, was the inside board. I just settled in and untangled the lines, and reset everything.
I think we caught a little over 34 Walleye in 3 days, out of all the trips and people, 32 of a possible 64. I didn't think that was bad, mostly because, it was my first time by myself, and with others, & we were there to eat. By Monday, the last day the only way to get Gramps to stop talking bout his STATE RECORD was to feed him Walleye, and force a Food Coma. Gram's was heard saying, Bout Dang (Not Dang, Beavers make these things to block the water) time he shut up about that fish!
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Awesome. I'm glad you are getting out there and actually experiencing the stuff first hand. Sometimes the learning curves are steep. This is one of those cases where you might be well served to watch someone else to rectify your board issues. I'll do my best to try and explain it. BUT... that said, I still get the same thing from time to time.
You normally don't have a ton of issues when you are running the bait on your close board (board A) with a short setback (say 45 feet). When board B (the outside board in a two board spread) is set at 70 feet back there is a big difference between the two setbacks and tangles are unlikely. Where you start running into issues is when your setbacks are close to one another OR, you are running similar depths. If for example, board A has a 50 setback and board B has a 60 setback, chances are high that, unless using some learned techniques, you ARE going to get tangles.
FYI, your assesment of waves and current is pretty spot on. That can have an influence. SO, here is what we do to try and mitigate the tangle issues.
Board A: Run it closer to the boat. Board B, run it down the center WAY FURTHER than you want it away from the boat. Let it ride in to position and then reel in the difference. When only running two boards, you can keep them further apart and this will avoid the tangles. When running three or more, it is VERY important to let that board go WAY out the back and ride into postion. This is a trick I learned after watching Kevin. Another trick (which I used this weekend and Steve got to witness). After you let that outside board ride up in to position. Start cranking it in a little ways. This often will produce a strike. Another trick is to let them out a little bit. Again, with following fish, this will produce strikes.
When the outside board goes off, and this is extremely important. DON'T start reeling. Let the weight of the fish pull the board way back so that it is almost inline with the other board before you start reeling. This is hard to do but works great. As long as there is tension on the line, you will not lose the fish. You still get tangles, it is unavoid able. Especially when you are running very similar setbacks. Running more than two boards isn't much different. Just have to pay attention to how much line you allow out the back of the boat to avoid one bait running overtop of another one.
As for towing fish. Do not feel bad. It takes a little while of watching boards for countless hours before you devolp a sense that you have something on. Sometimes, you are wrong but, more often than not, you are right. We towed a few around for 5 or so minutes knowing that we THOUGHT we had a fish on. We monitored the board very closely and eventually, saw somthing slight enough to warrent reeling it in.
Speed is another factor with this. A lot of times, some of these fish (salmon included) will be content swimming along with the baits. That reeling in or letting the board out trick is one of the best ones I have used in this scenario when I "think" there is a fish on.
The more you go, the more you know. I know that the navionics chips (although not great in some areas as we have witnessed) are pretty good for the bay. Just like with other electronics, (and I don't know why) some offer great maps of some locations and lousy ones of others. Lowrance maps have been great for the bay and other bigger bodies of water but they are lacking in the smaller lakes just as Navionics and lakemaster have their pro's and Con's.
All in all, you went out, were successful, and came back having learned some things and having questions on others. Once you get explainations to the questions, the picture get clearer.
All boards were set to the same length/depth, of 20 foot @ 81 feet of line. So that may have been my issue. However, 1st time, I did the same thing and had no issues. Maybe I was doing something wrong that was right.
Guessing from reading above, that I should have them staggered in depth like Salmon? 2 Board scenario would be similar to similar to Inside Board @ 20 Foot Depth/81 foot of line, and Outside board 18 Foot Depth/67 Feet of line, Add a third board even farther out at say 15 foot depth/51 Foot of line. This allows the outside boar to go over the board to its inside.
Is that Correct? or opposite, Deep lines to the outside?
I was marking fish on the bottom, and set EVERYTHING to the bottom. Even the 103 foot Bottom Bouncers......:Rofl
Longer leads to the outside. Shorter leads to the inside. You can run identical setbacks, just stagger like I discussed and you will be fine.
Example: Outside board is a DDHJ running 90 feet back (15 feet down). Middle board is a flicker at 75 back (15 feet down) inside board is a 1oz snap weight back 45 (15 feet down).
They all run the same depth but the setback keeps you out of trouble.
Again, you can run the same baits and setbacks, just stagger the boards further.
Here is something else. Once you get past 15 feet, the dive curve is narrow. Takes wzy more line to hit the next foot. So, one bait back 75 and one bait back 90 are pretty close to the same desired depth.
Another thing to pay attention to if your getting these tangles, is the crankbaits themselves, always check to see if there running true and not left or right. A left or right running bait with a weird cross wind/ current will lead to a lot of tangles.
So let’s say you have dialed in your depth ,color and speed , and all of your setbacks are pretty much the same if not exactly the same on all the lines, and the outside board goes off, you release the board, let it fall behind the boat and reel the fish in. So now instead of putting that board back to the outside just move the inside board to that outside position and put this one to inside spot. Now there’s no guess work about how far to let the board fall back and if they will get tangles
This past weekend when uncle Al and I were over on the bay, I noticed he was trying to do as I did when resetting a board back to the outside position. His issue was judging how far to let it fall back before engaging the reel, so I would have to constantly remind him to either let more line out or less line My permanent fix was to only run 2 boards on his side and one down rod out the back and always shift the rod positions when outside board was brought in.
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Awesome point Kevin! I completely forgot about this when running the same setbacks. It is something you see done when running big boards!
For me the majority of the time, I like a slight stagger in my baits. As I said before, once you get down around 15 feet with these baits, it takes a great deal more line to reach the next 1 foot of depth. So, running an 80 and a 90 setback is pretty darn close.
Here is another tip that everyone fishing my boat has liked (except Steve who is color blind). I alternated the color of my flags. I run an orange flag and then a green flag. It makes a huge difference. Instead of looking at 4 orange flags and trying to tell someone which rod to grab, you can now say the 1st green one, or the second orange one!
Colorblind Steve likes them in numerical order starting from stern going forward if multiple rods.....
1=inside board
2=next one out
3=you get the idea
and so on.
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Colorblind Steve & Pollock Oneida May have to go out and try and catch some.
Rich or Kevin, maybe even Ready2Fish,
So I was looking at boats on sale, and saw a boat that had a 36 Volt Ulterra at the bow & a Minnkota 36 Volt Transom Mount 300. (Could be two motor guides for all I care in this scenario.)
So with one at the Bow, and one at he transom, could you effectively have them both pointed upwind, with the boat in any position you want, and not have to worry about the bow staying in the wind when drifting the DR? You should in theory be able to make you boat drift almost sideways to the wind if you wanted correct?
Just an idea that crossed my Pollack mind, when I saw that boat with two trolling motors.
OE
Well I guess you could, you probably wouldn’t be fishing very long or that method would not pan out to be very efficient
First you would be running 2 36v motors off 1 set of batteries, the reason for not fishing a full day off that setup in a windy situation
Second if you thought maybe I’ll just add a 2nd set of batteries for other motor, well..... now your up to 7 batteries in the boat plus a couple of your fat friends and full tank of gas and about 3 gallons of peach mango green tea, [emoji23]. Now it takes a football field and a half to get boat on plane...... maybe
So this scenario is not that practical or efficient either, you’d be better off using your kicker or main outboard to help bow mount control the boat
for that scenario you seen on that boat Arron , I would say the rear motor was for back strolling techniques and bow mount for all other techniques
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On your mention of Second thought, Nope, just something I thought of while looking, and was curious, its cheaper to ask then to mock on my budget and then find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by skillett007
I checked after you mentioned batteries as said it has 5 Optima Blue Top Batteries with 4 bank battery charger. Does not say how they are config for charging. I'm going to guess a single battery for the rear trolling motor, and the starting battery is excluded, as it charges off the alternator of the motor. (again guessing as I was just reading the description of the boat)
Your point about PMGT is well taken. If its as HOT as it was last Sunday, I think I would rather have 3 gallons of fuel, and a tank of PMGT, a Speedo, and SPF 840........
Yeah, it was that hot....................
OE
Back trolling has its benefits in some areas. Heck, on a good day in the Detroit river, it is better to back troll as you get better boat control.
The 5 battery setup is usually 3 for the tm, 1 for starting, and a secondary for a kicker OR, to operate electronics. It is needed when running the Verado and a kicker attached to the main steering. Mainly because they run electronic steering.
4 bank is the max at one time. I have not checked on a 5 bank but, if you are only relying on the starting battery to start the boat and all electronics are running off rear bat 2, then the alternator would be sufficient for the battery not connected to the bank.
Too many guys rely on the alternator to charge their main but, don't realize that everything but the trolling motor is tied to it. Even had a boat dealer tell me you don't have to charge the main battery. After giving him this scenario, he changed his tune.
You run out 5 minutes with nav lights, you run your livewells, vhf, 3 fish finders, and stereo all day long. You head back in 5 minutes. Was it enough time to charge the battery? Do you trust it tomorrow when you do the same thing?
So Rich,
While I was on the Crappie Throne last night, I had an idea.
While on the bay would it be possible that instead of BB on the down rods, to run a Flicker with the line to match 10 foot down, then hook to a down rigger, and lower it to get the line out of the way?
Kind of like Flicker 30 foot of line = 10 foot down. Then hook to a rigger, then lower and add a foot for actual depth?
1 foot on the rigger would be 11 foot, 2=12, 3=13, etc?
Could get real TECHIE, and go with 13 foot of line, for 5 foot then add 1 for 6, 2 for 7, etc?
That way you could run a Flicker on a down rod, and not be as close to getting tangled up?
I knew you would eventually figure this stuff out! Look at you go Aaron (see, I didn't call you Erin). I'm proud of you!
Seriously, you are 150% correct. This setup would keep two rods close to the boat without the need for running planner boards to spread them out.
Most of the time, fishing less than 20 feet of water, guys don't bother with it. Especially if they are running over ground that is unevan and goes up or down. That said, in your scenario, you could lower the ball a certain depth and then run your setback to make up the rest. Heck, you can run riggers with spoons (obviously) and crawler harnesses.
With how much you like to salmon fish, I'm surprised you didn't get in to the spoon game over on Saginaw Bay. You can catch a ton of fish in short order while running 2.2 to 3.0 mph.
There are some guys that will run the rigger setup you mentioned but most of them run the traditional spoon program. That said, I think it would be a good idea, a quick way to get baits in the water, and keep them fishing. Another cool thing to do (I've done this) is use your cannon balls to dive baits that don't normally dive (say a floating rapala). They have a different action that can be deadly at times. Another tool would be that you could run much smaller baits without having to run 200 feet of line out to reach a depth. Another plus when fish want slow smaller offerings.
I have riggers and could run this setup but, I usually use mine when the depths get deeper. I do however feel that you would be successful over in the bay with this setup.
If it were me, I think I would set a limit of say 30 feet of setback as a max.
I am fishing over 20 feet of water. I want my baits to dive to 18 feet. I run a 15 foot setback on my flicker. That would get the bait to dive to 5 feet. I would clip it on the release and then lower the cannon ball 13 feet in to the water. 13 feet on the ball plus the 5 feet dive from the flicker equals 18 feet down.
My reason for keeping a shorter lead is just to avoid any potential tangles that could occure. Shorter setbacks are more managable in a turn and, heaven forbid, you get a catfish or something else on the line that likes to dive, it won't be able to tangle that shorter lead. You are on the mark though!
Another option if you don't want to use the rigger but still want to keep the bait next to the boat without running a planner board is to use a snap weight or an inline weight. A 2oz snap weight will get to 15 feet down with 32 feet of line out at speeds of 1.5mph!
I like the rigger idea but I think it would also greatly depend on the releases you use. I don't think I would be using the heavy releases that we used to use for salmon fishing (I prefered the adjustable tension Cannon claw release). I think instead, I would go with the Big Jon rubber band release. The reason I would do this is that the rubber band has streatch. My fear would be that a walleye would hit a bait with the normal release and you wouldn't see it whereas the rubber band release would allow you to see the bite better. Just a thought
You could also run your normal release but, instead of hooking the line in the release, half hitch a rubber band on the line and then clip the rubber band to the release. Same thing as the Big Jon concept. I hated having the rubber bands on board but in this instance, I think it would be a bit better of a setup.
To many miscellaneous expense's to drive far to fish this year. Started with employer changing to High Deductible Health Plan, and then BOAT LOADS of $$ for Vehicle repairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by wicklundrh
Put a damper on the WHOLE summer.
I like the rigger idea but I think it would also greatly depend on the releases you use.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by wicklundrh
5 foot down is 13 foot of line/setback. Tie to release, then add 10 on the rigger for 15, or more depending on water depth, that's pretty short, and low and away from anything above.
My releases are Blacks, & adjustable, I could/can adjust for a Walleye, or better yet just enough on the release so that if I snatch a junk plastic bag on a hook it would release. Thus it would release for Walleye as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by wicklundrh
It's not that i was going to do it, but thought of it, and thought, why wouldn't it work. Just trying to double up as much Salmon gear as I can for Walleye, and reduce my Walleye gear cost's out of the gate.
This also keeps me from needing or thinking I need two more planer boards until I get a bigger boat. I have only had 3 people including myself on my boat three times this year. It gets crowded if they do not know what they are doing in one scenario, the other is that SpartanNation, & 2018 Fall Designated Internet Crappie King, can hardly function in the heat of day, and have BAD SALMON JUJU. Walleye JuJu in Detroit, that's OK, put them in the boat for Salmon, we need all the JuJu we can get.....
Although to get me to 9 rods for 3 people I would need 2 more regardless, SST & Tattle Tale type for Walleye, that gets me 8.
OE
Sterling State Park:
While I try to reduce as much cost as possible to save $, I was just looking into the Walleye future crystal ball.
This year April I stayed @ Sterling State Park for my Weekend Walleye trip as they were open, the prior year, they did not open until AFTER April 28th. Last year I'm guessing the got numerous G_rump calls about the opening date.
Next year year they are opening April 5th! YIPPE. Of course, I may need SpartanNation & Jeff, or Ready2Fish along to help set up the tent, but at $24.00 a night, it was great and cost effective.
Its also only about a 28 minute drive to Elizabeth Park Launch, or 24 Minutes to Lake Erie. Mid River Wyandotte is a 40 minute drive.
Harbor Town RV Resort is not far away either, but they have a pesky train that is louder then SpartainNation snoring, and almost as heavy as Becky rolling down the tracks, it gets difficult to sleep when your been shaken allot. They are also 2X the price @ $46.00 a night.
Any one that can rough that, in a tent, camper, etc, Starling State Park is the place. & they are not LOADED with people at that time frame. I was the only one NUTS enough to be there in a tent.
OE
There’s a decent hotel across the street, if the weather gets a bit sideways......lol
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Holiday Inn Express and I have a bazillion rewards points for there......only perk I got for working on the road away from home for 2 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by skillett007
That would be the Days Inn. We know all about that one!
Oh, I thought it was the Holiday Inn Express next to the bait shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by wicklundrh
Either way it beats staying in a tent.
No, I was referencing Kevin's post about the hotel just up the road! The Holiday in was too rich for our blood!Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Steve
Whats wrong with my tent? Other than I seem to have a Pollock Moment or two during set up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Steve
its not made by GMC, so its safe.......
OE
Let's see-
1) Sleeping on the ground in a tent with OE on a frosty spring night or
2) Sleeping in a hotel room with Steve who is known to sound like an 18 wheeler jake braking down a 7% grade when he snores.
Is there an option 3? Maybe the Days Inn wouldn't be too bad.
Ground? I have a nice blow up bed, for just such an occasion. Going to upgrade to a nice cot though for the future I think, just not sure when.Quote:
Originally Posted by spartannation
Cabela's Online Store - Quality Hunting, Fishing, Camping and Outdoor Gear
As far as frosty. My Sleeping bags are good down to ZERO, and have kept me toasty warm. Its only cold when you get OUT of them, and wonder why you did so after subconsciously diving back in while in shock.
OE
I officially gave up tent camping while I was at Sterling. Kevin was there as well!
I jetisonned my waterlogged tent along with broken EZ Up in the trash bins and checked in to the Days Inn. It was just our style too!
Boats backed to the door, cords run through the window, BBQ between the rooms. We had a blast. We wouldn't have in the tents! I vowed that I would NEVER tent camp again!
Me and Jeff did the 2017 fall camp in a tent at Waffle Farms. Took a cot and cushions so the sleeping wasn't bad, the bad part was they put us under the nut laden walnut trees and we spent the week end dodging falling skull crackers. We did catch a lot of fish, though.
Last time I tent camped was with my son Chris at the 2014 spring camp. He had one of those blow up mattresses but it still didn't make it much more comfortable. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it again, just not fond of it. When we were building our cabin I actually slept next to the firepit in a sleeping bag on the ground under the canopy of the stars, the howling of the yotes off in the distance gave a bit of a eery feeling.
If we would like to discuss tent camping:
In the California desert with tarantula and rattle snakes, the desert in Almaria Spain with a weird Spanish Army, the swamps of North Carolina, the ground next to a Cocaine field in Columbia... I'm amazed I bought a tent after that.
No, I was NOT gaurding those fields in Columbia!
Glampers, All of Ya, just plain GLAMPERS!