Getting sick of sickles...

[laserdoc]

Just talked to the owner of Matzuo(DON)
Aside from a bad lot and the change of factorys from China to Korea and the temp thing in the sand when they are heat treated. Something we overlooked and I beleive someone else metioned. the guys that are breaking hooks like AW. Are you pouring your own jigs or are you getting them from someone that pours for you. This whole problem maybe from the lead being to hot when you guys pour. If the lead is to hot your double heat treating them.This makes the hook brittle. I know when the lead is hotter that it pours better but this can also be the problem.
Skip//Could Phil be overheating his lead on some pours to make the lead flow better?

[Illinoisgiller]

I have been watching this thread with some interest. I'm sure happy that the problem has been found.
Now if everyone will just avoid using these for poured jigs, the problem will dissapear. Illinoisgiller

[buzzmanmo]

I have made close to 8,000 jigs this year with no problem. I use soft lead only. Hard lead needs to be hotter and the mold gets hotter. Just my 2 cents.

[laserdoc]

I have made close to 8,000 jigs this year with no problem. I use soft lead only. Hard lead needs to be hotter and the mold gets hotter. Just my 2 cents.

Buzzman may have hit the nail on the head. !!
To all you guys who pour,,,,are you using soft or hard lead???

[LedHed]

laserdoc
What is the tempering temperature that matzuo uses?
The only problem I've had (out of ~8K hooks) was 1K#6 BZ hooks that had "Flat eyes". The 1K hooks were promptly replaced with #6 BC hooks at no charge.
As far as the breakage - haven't seen it. I would lean towards tying technique (too much pressure) except cadman said he has the breakage problem also.

[cadman]

laserdoc
What is the tempering temperature that matzuo uses?
The only problem I've had (out of ~8K hooks) was 1K#6 BZ hooks that had "Flat eyes". The 1K hooks were promptly replaced with #6 BC hooks at no charge.
As far as the breakage - haven't seen it. I would lean towards tying technique (too much pressure) except cadman said he has the breakage problem also.

Laserdoc, If you don't mind I also would like to know what their tempering temperture is if you can get that information. As far as hook breakage goes, the report I'm getting was from several customers. Not all hooks were breaking about 8-12 out of a box of 50. Maybe there was a mixed lot of hooks don't know. As far as the lead being too hot, I find that answer to this problem incorrect. I maybe wrong in this response, but when you heat temper, doesn't the jig have to get red hot in order for tempering to occur? You will never get a lead pot with lead in it that hot to allow tempering. I would agree to that statement if you left a hook in a lead pot for an 8 hour pour. Everyone that pours puts the hook in, pours the lead and takes the jig out all of about 5 seconds max. My lead mix is 60/40. 60% hard and 40% soft. Also if you prep your lead, flux it and heat your mold hot, use a release agent, you can pour hard lead at lower temps. You just have to know what you are doing when pouring hard lead. All molds aren't made the same, and all molds like round, minnow and pony heads will pour easily with hard lead since there are no intricate details in the molds. All of the molds mentioned above are about 90% of what everyone uses here for crappie jigs. I personally think that this is a quality control issue at Matzuo. Anyway its no big deal to me since I don't use these that often and when I do there is a disclaimer with every package of jigs I sell that use these hooks. Thanks for any help.

[flatfish46]

I'll break it down real quick with 30 year's in the aircraft and tooling industries' there's a very few alloy's that harden with more heat applied this is called a h condition the problem with tempering is that that if the quinch bath is not even you'll have un-even result's most manufacture's in the heatreating industries use heated oil baths ,molten salt baths or molten lead baths some use heated water baths with poly substrate's added for large pieces of 4340 or simular carbon alloys I personally put My hook's in small pot pie pans and draw them for 1 hour at 475 deg. in the oven I also have a commerical heatreat oven ,but You don't need one it could be some peoiple cold shot their pour's this is if the mold get's to hot to handle from rapid pouring they'll dip it in water hince they 1st area to become brittle is the part of the hook out-side the head area sand quinch's aren't the best ,but their the most practical for mass production of small parts You have to remember as long as Man is involved nothing is perfect You can only correct things with more inspection time thus making the cost rise I've worked with Enigineers from all branch's of the Armed Service's ,Boeing ,General Dynamics and Lockhead not to mention several major Tooling and Oil-field Company's and heatreat metal about 2-3 day's a week ,but I'm not an Authority on this there are people far more smarter than Myself it's just My 2 cent's worth.

[brimreaper]

lmbo...I told you Flat was Albert Einstein come back to be a crappiefishing/jig pouring/fishy inventions guy this go 'round. You guys figure this out sounds like it's way over my head anyway. I have a hard time with sudoku puzzles. I'll just tie my jigs and put my faith in Cadman and Flatfish to figure out the technical stuff and watch old Grubfarmer for all the crazy looking jigs he comes out with and his entertaining threads. I'll watch Ole giller and Jiggin joe for all their pointers on the micro stuff and spend all my time on the water asking the crappie and brim what they think about my jigs, heat treating, color combinations, hook breakage, the weather, Obama, and anything else that they want to talk about while they are deciding to bite or not. Like it has been said in here before, "I have spent alot of time fishing in my life, the rest of the time I totally wasted on things that were not nearly as fun or rewarding". Have a good one people and don't sweat the small stuff....we ain't gonna be here forever so go fishing today.......brim

[Fatman]

Yeah I gotta agree with Cad here, there's no way a Lee pot and pouring into Do-IT molds is gonna re-temper a hook. I use a 2-1 mix in my really small heads 2 parts pure to 1 part hard and sometimes straight hard. Each mold is different in what it will accept to make great pours.

I've been pouring for alot of years started when I was 11 with help and graduated to pouring by myself and I'm 47 now. Now I haven't personally broken any while tying YET hope I don't. The only problem I found with the sickels is some of the leg lengths - from the eye to the first bend where the lead is molded on, some were WAY longer than others. I sent some to Laser to send back to show the problem, I've never had that with any other brand of hook.

Fatman

[LedHed]

laserdoc

Have you had/heard of any more hook breakage? Where do these hooks break at?