Thanks Alphahawk, I've been reading through topics for the past 6 hours. The Lunakia 610 is at the top of my list right now, also been considering the 632 reading what I can find on it but think if I'm going with Lunakia I will hold out for the 610. The Tict ice cube,Eradicator Real Finesse , and 18 corto are also on my list to check out. I'm at work so some of the websites I'd like to get to are blocked. Looks like a lot of research ahead.