Thread: Listen up .... FYI

Originally Posted by CrappiePappy

Don't hurt my feelings, either, but I wonder why it didn't get a 10" size limit

we fish GRL all fall ,winter and spring. crappie there are very healthy ,I don't think they should change the limit, but raise size limit to 10''. Decreasing limit without raising the size = more short fish. Just saying.

So did the 20 crappie limit pass statewide? & does this include all bodies of water ? Particularly the Ohio river & it's tributaries. The limits change wouldn't bother me. 20 good keepers is plenty to clean on a trip. I would have like to see some kind of size limit implemented for these waters.

Lots of Questions, Myths, Perceptions, Opinions, Misconceptions, and some Truths

Unless otherwise noted, when I use the word “lakes”, I’m referring to Kentucky and Barkley lakes.

As I read down through all the comments, I have attempted to address some of the questions. If I missed something, reply back or email me at [email protected].

Just because “Asian carp” are not on the Commission’s agenda, does not mean the Department is doing nothing about this issue. This week for instance, our staff is working with the US Fish and Wildlife each night 6pm-2am on the lakes to capture carp utilizing an electrified Paupier net, as well as their normal work load of riding along with commercial anglers. Last week, some effort was spent pulling a trawl near the river channel in order to look for potential schools of juvenile carp; none were found, but more searching will be done.

We have considered extensively increasing the size limit of crappie in the lakes. I could retire a wealthy angler if I had a dollar for every time we have analyzed the data and addressed the need for a size limit on crappie. If we were convinced it would benefit the fishery, it would have been done, or at least tried. The bottom line is; we don’t have the longer growing season like the crappie Mississippi lakes. As Slow Retrieve stated it, “Mississippi has a longer growing season so we likely couldn't duplicate that regardless of size limits changes.” That is the answer to the 11”-12” size limit misconception. At age three our crappie average 10", in MS, their age three crappie average 12".

Some suggest fishing pressure is higher now than it has ever been. The data from creel surveys suggest you are wrong. In 1964, 28.4 hours of fishing effort/acre was reported on KY Lake. In surveys in the 70’s-80’s pressure was consistently around 20 hours/acre. In 2004, effort jumped up to 26.5 hours/acre, while in 2011 and 2015 it was 19.3 and 16.5 hours/acre, respectively. I might add that though, winter (Dec.-Feb.) fishing has increased, and these months were not surveyed. But I doubt if during these months, the pressure would make up the difference from 2015 to 1964.

I concur, I have written several times on this forum about crappie; good and bad spawns = variable recruitment, size limits, pole limits, etc. Search for it if you don’t find enough detail in this post.

One comment suggest the fishery was better several years ago. If I look at the data, other than the typically ups and downs due to variable recruitment, if there is any decline, it came after the stricter creel limits and 10-inch size limit was imposed. Harvest dropped from around 500,000 (on average from KY Lake creel data) pre-regulations to closer to 100,000 post-regulations. However, in exchange for fewer fish, quality went up. Back in the days, the average weight of crappie harvested was 0.55 pounds, while in the last few years (after regulations) the average weight of crappie harvested is 0.82 pounds. The average size of crappie harvested at KY lake in 2015 was 12.0 inches as compared to 10.0 inches in 1985. This data is from hundreds of crappie angler’s creel throughout those years, not just your personal fishing. Maybe your fishing success was different, but on average for all crappie anglers this is what happened.

I agree with many on here, we need more enforcement. I don’t think there is as much illegal fishing going on as suspected, and it’s definitely not driving the fishery. But there is some, and it needs to be stopped. Believe it or not, we are short on officers, and it is hard to (or harder than you would think) to get some young men (younger than me) to make it through the training. Millennials?? LOL (not all millenials) Last academy started with 24 recruits, and I believe only 11 graduated. The dropout rate is big.

Amartinbio, works with me, and sees the same data I have. Two biologists looking at the same data, and both agree with the current management. Kind of like getting two doctors opinions if you are sick. And in times of question, we have fisheries professors at Murray State University to collaborate with.

Recruitment (this is what we call it for a spawned fish to make it to age one). Hence you could have a good spawn but high winter mortality, which would equal low recruitment. Or vice-versa, but yield better recruitment. True story… It was in the 2000’s, when based on good recruitment, I told anglers that crappie fishing was going to get better, just need time to let the little crappie grow up. Steve Vantresse (Paducah Sun) wrote an article on by prognostication (I have it if needed for evidence). However, the spring to be finally came, and crappie fishing was poor… despite what I knew should be a good spring. The numbers were there, but they were not being caught. Man did I ever hear it from anglers. It got ugly. But, I knew what the data suggested, so I did not waiver my reply when questioned. Then fall came, out of apparently no were, keeper size crappie appeared. Anglers delighted in significant improvement in catches. These 10” inch crappie did not just come out of no were. They had been there all along. I don’t care how good of an angler you are, weather and water conditions effect your catch. That spring had just been off due to weather and lake conditions.

To read in these comments that I (the Department) does not listen to anglers. Personally this is an insult to me. But I can take it, because I know it to be wrong. I listen, I present information to many angler groups each year. And I listen. But, just because I don’t give in to political pressure or pressure from sporting groups, does not mean I don’t listen. If an angler has an idea, I will pursue it. I will use data to determine the validity of the idea. If anything, sometimes anglers don’t listen, because I have explained the biology of the lakes fisheries over and over, and I continue to defend the same management decisions that I (the Department) feels is the best for the lakes. I don’t claim to have all the right answers. The fisheries of our lakes are every evolving. I will always attempt to adapt our management based on science.

If you want an 11” size limit, because you think it will help, then self-impose the limit on your own catch such as bandchaser. True conservationist. Others, if you are so convinced it will help, then do it.

In regards to questions about mortality. I will be the first to agree that there is some voodoo in making these calculations. But when you do it year after year, you come up with some good trend data. (this is just an example of the math) Basically, you take a sample of the population one year, and for this example there are 200 age 3 crappie. Then you take a sample the next year, and there are 100 age 4 crappie. So total mortality was 50%. However total mortality is equal to fishing mortality plus natural mortality. From creel surveys and tagging studies we know that fishing mortality for crappie is around 48%, so that means the other 52% could have died from natural causes. However, in an open system like KY lake, they may not have died. Maybe they swam over to Barkley, went to Big Sandy, maybe they got flushed through the dam. Needless to say, they are gone. But, when you take our data, and you look at data from other “closed” systems, the mortality data often is similar. Therefore, suggesting the majority died in our system. Likely though, you will not see them all floating.

Thanks pab1981 for being happy.

For you all wishing for an 11” size limit on our lakes, what if you found out that what makes Mississippi crappie so good, was pole limits? Not really, just wanted to see what your reaction was. The reason MS went to pole limits was their harvest was so high, that they could either reduce the creel limit further, or reduce the amount of tackle an angler used. Fearing that a reduction in creel limit would be unacceptable by anglers, they leveled the playing field for anglers by enforcing gear restrictions (pole limits) to reduce harvest. Yes, you are right, a limit is a limit regardless of how much gear you have. But surveys have shown that anglers using multiple poles have greater success in a shorter amount of time. Such as on KY Lake, catch rates using 1 or 2 poles on average was 0.7 fish/hour. While those using 3 or more poles was 2.3 fish/hour. Broken down even further, the catch with 5 or more poles was 1.3 fish/hour versus 0.9 with 3 poles. So to effectively reduce harvest, you can reduce the creel limit or restrict the fishing method. They work in tandem. You are right, MS upped the pole limit, but to offset the additional expected harvest they reduced the creel limit. Right now, we are not concerned that harvest is too high on the lakes, so no pole limit or creel limit regulation is being considered for KY and Barkley lakes. But, these are our options if it becomes a concern.

Micro-management has been tried in the Department. Years ago, we had separate regulations for almost each lake. Anglers began complaining of our complicated regulations. Their voices were heard, and the Commission challenge us (biologist) to make more “statewide” management decisions to help reduce the number of different regulation from lake to lake. But, some lakes are worth have specific regulations to help maintain quality or trophy fisheries. So, some there is still some micro-management. In regards to micro-management on KY and Barkley lakes, it would be a law enforcement nightmare, and would likely do little to help the population. If it would help though, we could fight through the enforcement nightmares. The reason specific regulation for different embayments would not help though, is fish are too mobile, as our anglers. How do you regulate an anglers catch when he could potentially fish multiple areas in a day, that were managed differently?

Additionally, I don’t see any overwhelming reason to regulation black and white crappie differently. Yes, I agree there is some growth differences, such as at age 3, white crappie are likely 10 inches where black crappie are closer to 9 inches. The point of different size limits over one inch is not worth the problems it would cause. In regards to anglers not knowing the difference between a white and a black crappie, the data was scary. This was studied in 2003, by tagging almost 1,000 crappie; 21% of the black crappie tagged, when caught where called white crappie by the anglers. 14% of the tagged white crappie were reported as black crappie. 7% of the crappie, the anglers did not know what species they had… which leaves 58% were correctly identified. And, to add to that now… we are seeing more hybrid crappie in the lake. So, yea, duck hunters are awesome at knowing their prey.

I like this one pab1981, “And also further illustrates the problem with allowing fisherman to try to do biologists jobs.” That is like me telling my dermatologist that the spot on by arm is not cancer, and I know, because I with my skin every day. Really though... I like to hear what anglers have to say. Some are out on the lake a lot, and they see the fishery from a different perspective. They may see things that our data collection misses.

The sky is definitely overcast with regards to Asian carp in the lakes, but the sky is definitely not falling. We have the same concerns as anglers, if not more. However, the carp have been in the lake for several years so far. The 2015 spawn of carp in the lake has definitely increased their numbers. However, in light of their presences in the lake, the fisheries are as good as or better than they were pre-carp. Maybe there is speculation based on your personal fishing that things have gotten worse, but we look on a larger scale and don’t seen anything declining. Crappie are still cycling, bass numbers and weights are better. Redear are doing good. BUT… we are watching for changes each day in our sampling. In the meantime, we have staff working with commercial anglers to catch them out, and in the in-between times, our staff are catching them and removing them. It’s a battle, and many soldiers are needed. If you catch one, remove it. Take it home, fry it, and try it. They are not bad.

Originally Posted by pab1981

Guess I am on the wrong side of this one, I am happy with Kentucky/Barkley as they are. I have friends and family that enjoy eating 10.25-11" fish. I also don't see anything out of line with good fish according to the year class strength. We have some great big fish years to look forward to coming up just like we have had some great big fish years in the not so recent past. Look at the tournament weights from the years following the last great boom like we are in now. I will save you some time, they were fantastic. We aren't in Mississippi and you can't make it so no matter how much you wish it.

I for one hope our biologists continue to manage our fisheries based on sound science not the emotional swings of fisherman trying to find fish or wishing our fish grew like they did in a different area of the country. Mean absolutely no disrespect to any of you on the other side, I know and like several of you, just come down on the other side of this.

Agreed,why have biologist if we're not gonna listen to them,makes no sense.Everyone had there own agenda on what they would like changed,but what do we really no l.

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Originally Posted by prister

Lots of Questions, Myths, Perceptions, Opinions, Misconceptions, and some Truths

Unless otherwise noted, when I use the word “lakes”, I’m referring to Kentucky and Barkley lakes.

As I read down through all the comments, I have attempted to address some of the questions. If I missed something, reply back or email me at [email protected].

Just because “Asian carp” are not on the Commission’s agenda, does not mean the Department is doing nothing about this issue. This week for instance, our staff is working with the US Fish and Wildlife each night 6pm-2am on the lakes to capture carp utilizing an electrified Paupier net, as well as their normal work load of riding along with commercial anglers. Last week, some effort was spent pulling a trawl near the river channel in order to look for potential schools of juvenile carp; none were found, but more searching will be done.

We have considered extensively increasing the size limit of crappie in the lakes. I could retire a wealthy angler if I had a dollar for every time we have analyzed the data and addressed the need for a size limit on crappie. If we were convinced it would benefit the fishery, it would have been done, or at least tried. The bottom line is; we don’t have the longer growing season like the crappie Mississippi lakes. As Slow Retrieve stated it, “Mississippi has a longer growing season so we likely couldn't duplicate that regardless of size limits changes.” That is the answer to the 11”-12” size limit misconception. At age three our crappie average 10", in MS, their age three crappie average 12".

Some suggest fishing pressure is higher now than it has ever been. The data from creel surveys suggest you are wrong. In 1964, 28.4 hours of fishing effort/acre was reported on KY Lake. In surveys in the 70’s-80’s pressure was consistently around 20 hours/acre. In 2004, effort jumped up to 26.5 hours/acre, while in 2011 and 2015 it was 19.3 and 16.5 hours/acre, respectively. I might add that though, winter (Dec.-Feb.) fishing has increased, and these months were not surveyed. But I doubt if during these months, the pressure would make up the difference from 2015 to 1964.

I concur, I have written several times on this forum about crappie; good and bad spawns = variable recruitment, size limits, pole limits, etc. Search for it if you don’t find enough detail in this post.

One comment suggest the fishery was better several years ago. If I look at the data, other than the typically ups and downs due to variable recruitment, if there is any decline, it came after the stricter creel limits and 10-inch size limit was imposed. Harvest dropped from around 500,000 (on average from KY Lake creel data) pre-regulations to closer to 100,000 post-regulations. However, in exchange for fewer fish, quality went up. Back in the days, the average weight of crappie harvested was 0.55 pounds, while in the last few years (after regulations) the average weight of crappie harvested is 0.82 pounds. The average size of crappie harvested at KY lake in 2015 was 12.0 inches as compared to 10.0 inches in 1985. This data is from hundreds of crappie angler’s creel throughout those years, not just your personal fishing. Maybe your fishing success was different, but on average for all crappie anglers this is what happened.

I agree with many on here, we need more enforcement. I don’t think there is as much illegal fishing going on as suspected, and it’s definitely not driving the fishery. But there is some, and it needs to be stopped. Believe it or not, we are short on officers, and it is hard to (or harder than you would think) to get some young men (younger than me) to make it through the training. Millennials?? LOL (not all millenials) Last academy started with 24 recruits, and I believe only 11 graduated. The dropout rate is big.

Amartinbio, works with me, and sees the same data I have. Two biologists looking at the same data, and both agree with the current management. Kind of like getting two doctors opinions if you are sick. And in times of question, we have fisheries professors at Murray State University to collaborate with.

Recruitment (this is what we call it for a spawned fish to make it to age one). Hence you could have a good spawn but high winter mortality, which would equal low recruitment. Or vice-versa, but yield better recruitment. True story… It was in the 2000’s, when based on good recruitment, I told anglers that crappie fishing was going to get better, just need time to let the little crappie grow up. Steve Vantresse (Paducah Sun) wrote an article on by prognostication (I have it if needed for evidence). However, the spring to be finally came, and crappie fishing was poor… despite what I knew should be a good spring. The numbers were there, but they were not being caught. Man did I ever hear it from anglers. It got ugly. But, I knew what the data suggested, so I did not waiver my reply when questioned. Then fall came, out of apparently no were, keeper size crappie appeared. Anglers delighted in significant improvement in catches. These 10” inch crappie did not just come out of no were. They had been there all along. I don’t care how good of an angler you are, weather and water conditions effect your catch. That spring had just been off due to weather and lake conditions.

To read in these comments that I (the Department) does not listen to anglers. Personally this is an insult to me. But I can take it, because I know it to be wrong. I listen, I present information to many angler groups each year. And I listen. But, just because I don’t give in to political pressure or pressure from sporting groups, does not mean I don’t listen. If an angler has an idea, I will pursue it. I will use data to determine the validity of the idea. If anything, sometimes anglers don’t listen, because I have explained the biology of the lakes fisheries over and over, and I continue to defend the same management decisions that I (the Department) feels is the best for the lakes. I don’t claim to have all the right answers. The fisheries of our lakes are every evolving. I will always attempt to adapt our management based on science.

If you want an 11” size limit, because you think it will help, then self-impose the limit on your own catch such as bandchaser. True conservationist. Others, if you are so convinced it will help, then do it.

In regards to questions about mortality. I will be the first to agree that there is some voodoo in making these calculations. But when you do it year after year, you come up with some good trend data. (this is just an example of the math) Basically, you take a sample of the population one year, and for this example there are 200 age 3 crappie. Then you take a sample the next year, and there are 100 age 4 crappie. So total mortality was 50%. However total mortality is equal to fishing mortality plus natural mortality. From creel surveys and tagging studies we know that fishing mortality for crappie is around 48%, so that means the other 52% could have died from natural causes. However, in an open system like KY lake, they may not have died. Maybe they swam over to Barkley, went to Big Sandy, maybe they got flushed through the dam. Needless to say, they are gone. But, when you take our data, and you look at data from other “closed” systems, the mortality data often is similar. Therefore, suggesting the majority died in our system. Likely though, you will not see them all floating.

Thanks pab1981 for being happy.

For you all wishing for an 11” size limit on our lakes, what if you found out that what makes Mississippi crappie so good, was pole limits? Not really, just wanted to see what your reaction was. The reason MS went to pole limits was their harvest was so high, that they could either reduce the creel limit further, or reduce the amount of tackle an angler used. Fearing that a reduction in creel limit would be unacceptable by anglers, they leveled the playing field for anglers by enforcing gear restrictions (pole limits) to reduce harvest. Yes, you are right, a limit is a limit regardless of how much gear you have. But surveys have shown that anglers using multiple poles have greater success in a shorter amount of time. Such as on KY Lake, catch rates using 1 or 2 poles on average was 0.7 fish/hour. While those using 3 or more poles was 2.3 fish/hour. Broken down even further, the catch with 5 or more poles was 1.3 fish/hour versus 0.9 with 3 poles. So to effectively reduce harvest, you can reduce the creel limit or restrict the fishing method. They work in tandem. You are right, MS upped the pole limit, but to offset the additional expected harvest they reduced the creel limit. Right now, we are not concerned that harvest is too high on the lakes, so no pole limit or creel limit regulation is being considered for KY and Barkley lakes. But, these are our options if it becomes a concern.

Micro-management has been tried in the Department. Years ago, we had separate regulations for almost each lake. Anglers began complaining of our complicated regulations. Their voices were heard, and the Commission challenge us (biologist) to make more “statewide” management decisions to help reduce the number of different regulation from lake to lake. But, some lakes are worth have specific regulations to help maintain quality or trophy fisheries. So, some there is still some micro-management. In regards to micro-management on KY and Barkley lakes, it would be a law enforcement nightmare, and would likely do little to help the population. If it would help though, we could fight through the enforcement nightmares. The reason specific regulation for different embayments would not help though, is fish are too mobile, as our anglers. How do you regulate an anglers catch when he could potentially fish multiple areas in a day, that were managed differently?

Additionally, I don’t see any overwhelming reason to regulation black and white crappie differently. Yes, I agree there is some growth differences, such as at age 3, white crappie are likely 10 inches where black crappie are closer to 9 inches. The point of different size limits over one inch is not worth the problems it would cause. In regards to anglers not knowing the difference between a white and a black crappie, the data was scary. This was studied in 2003, by tagging almost 1,000 crappie; 21% of the black crappie tagged, when caught where called white crappie by the anglers. 14% of the tagged white crappie were reported as black crappie. 7% of the crappie, the anglers did not know what species they had… which leaves 58% were correctly identified. And, to add to that now… we are seeing more hybrid crappie in the lake. So, yea, duck hunters are awesome at knowing their prey.

I like this one pab1981, “And also further illustrates the problem with allowing fisherman to try to do biologists jobs.” That is like me telling my dermatologist that the spot on by arm is not cancer, and I know, because I with my skin every day. Really though... I like to hear what anglers have to say. Some are out on the lake a lot, and they see the fishery from a different perspective. They may see things that our data collection misses.

The sky is definitely overcast with regards to Asian carp in the lakes, but the sky is definitely not falling. We have the same concerns as anglers, if not more. However, the carp have been in the lake for several years so far. The 2015 spawn of carp in the lake has definitely increased their numbers. However, in light of their presences in the lake, the fisheries are as good as or better than they were pre-carp. Maybe there is speculation based on your personal fishing that things have gotten worse, but we look on a larger scale and don’t seen anything declining. Crappie are still cycling, bass numbers and weights are better. Redear are doing good. BUT… we are watching for changes each day in our sampling. In the meantime, we have staff working with commercial anglers to catch them out, and in the in-between times, our staff are catching them and removing them. It’s a battle, and many soldiers are needed. If you catch one, remove it. Take it home, fry it, and try it. They are not bad.

I also want to say thanks to Paul Rister and the rest of the crew that help with the creel data

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I think vvoluntary compliance is most likely superior to enforcement. Prohibition did little to reduce alcoholism and increased crime by contrast public campaigns against smoking have been fairly effective. That doesn't mean no regulation and associated enforcement is necessary. After all ending prohibition didn't end enforcement.

One question we can ask is how large mouth bass fishing has become primarily a catch and release pass time. I understand that model is not transferable to Crappie fishing but does illuminate the possibilities.

For me any restrictions the biologists want are not an issue. I also don't really care that much about how many fish over 10 inches I catch. What interests me is avoiding a one size fits all solution in an increasingly densely populated country that is unaccustomed to social mores based on conformity. The tragedy of the commons is not something we are unaware of it is something we have no idea how to address.

I'm sure the biologists are doing the best they can and I support raising license fees so they have more resources. If that is burden for the poor maybe free fishing days are the answer. Let's face it anyone who can afford a boat can afford a $50 license. People need to be reasonable about what a disaster free stuff from the government has been. They also have to have lower expectations about what can be provided as the population grows but new acres of water are not added. The truth is that half the state governments are on the verge of bankruptcy. Americans are maxed out on credit as well. If we are going to have substantial fisheries we need to face the fact that fishermen need to pay for them. It is no coincidence that some of the worst environmental tragedies were in the Soviet Union.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I think we need to look outside the current box.

Paul, I personally think the State does a fantastic job with adjusting regulations based on the data they collect at the Lakes. I know it has to be a ROYAL pain. Since this is a Crappie site, the limit stuff gets a lot of attention and is important to all here. The 10 inch/20 limit sounds good for most if not all the major lakes. I just wish we could remove the size and increase the creel limit on the smaller lakes to remove the small crappie if over populated until you see a change. I'm sure most panfisherman would prefer an 7-8 inch crappie over a 6 inch bluegill if they are meat fishing. Same goes for LM Bass in the small lakes like Beaver. Set a slot limit of something like 12-16 inches, large creel limit for anything under 12 inches and maybe 1 or 2 over 16". Again, the meat fisherman would love a 10" bass versus a small panfish. After a while, you may or may not see results.

I've seen stuff on the 'Spider Rigging' type fishing. I don't see a problem with this. It's a quick way to get your limit, and get off the lake. I experienced this at Okeechobee this January. We fished shortly after dark, 6-10 poles each and had our limit of 25 crappie over 11" in about 90 minutes for 5 days in a row. Works good, but makes for a short fishing trip. If I had to do it again, I'd use one pole and spend a little more time on the Lake.

Many thanks for your work.

First, thinks Paul Rister for the in depth response, even in the face of clear opposition.

Second, a question about the new regs. I have looked and have verified what was changed. What I have not seen though, is when do the new regs take effect? Anyone know?

Thanks!