Printable View
I am building some small (1/16 and 1/32) Pony Head (Road Runner) style jigs and need to purchase some components. Where is a good place to buy small split rings, swivels, and Indiana blades ( size 1,0,00 ). Also interested in purchasing some willow leaf blades in same sizes.
Try netcraft they should have everything you need.
FYI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jig Man
Make sure you don't sell them as TTI-Blakemore will own your business. As long as you are doing them for your self there is not a problem though.
Skip
skip,,,I still cant understand how they can do that.. I know they built their proto-type from a do-it mold and gotta trademark on the design of it and the casting from it,, but nobody has challenged that in court yet as far as do-it or I know about.. I dont have the money/time or inginuity anymore ta challenge them on it.. 15 years ago I hadda team of atty's on my payroll and wood've then,, but just dont care bout them anymore..my ponyheads/horseheads catch more than theirs do anyway,, & I'll keep making them....
JAKE
you can sell them all you want as long as you dont call them Road Runners...if you call them pony heads they cant do nothing to you...i should know i had a run in with them last year when the lady who does my website posted them as road runner and they contacted me and told me as long as you call them somthing else you will be okay but you can call them road runners since that is a trade mark of blakemore...
Crappie Killer I hate to disagree with you but it is not the trademark on the name roadrunner but the design of the head they have it on,if you get caught selling them no matter what ya call em they can come after you.But your weclome to sell any and all of them you like,I see it as you can do whatever ya want no matter to me.Just my 2 cents.
You guys just don't get it. You can buy a Di-it mold and make all you want for your own use. You can not sell any of them without taking a huge risk.
As for the not having it taken to court, that has already happened. Jug as the guy that once made Stump Jumper for Bass Pro and then see who makes them for Bass Pro now. The guy sent me an email when he saw me starting to post pics of Pony Head Jigs and told me his story.
I buy Roadrunner heads now and they know about it since I buy from TTI-Blakemore.
Their Trademark covers the design not the name so it will not matter what you call them, they are not legal to sell and then you would be taking that big risk.
Ask anyone you want and you will see.
Skip
yea i can add they look for poeple selling them too you get nasty letters at first befor they take you to court the guy who warmed me got tho's letters and gave me a ton of stuff to make my own with since he couldnt sell them anymore
I will add this tid-bit.....
I've had a couple of paper copies of Do-Its catalogs - in the section of the catalog w/ the 'horse head' molds, they always had a disclaimer about TTI-Blakemore and the Road Runner. They used to state that they (Do-It) didn't believe TTI's claim would stand-up in court, as they (Do-It) said (**I am doing this from memory - not a exact quote**) roughly "the horse head jig has been around longer than the Road Runner name".
I just eyeballed Do-its horse head mold page (Horse & pony head jigs)- that warning isn't on the web pages.....
I just picked up the mold - I will make some when its warm enough outside for doing some casting, but they are going to be for my use and that of my buddies - not selling any - not in the business anyway - but that is a seperate subject....
You would be wise to listen to and heed what Skip is trying to tell you. He is in the trade, lawyers aren't cheap.
UG
An Added note about history of lure (as I know it)
These were first made by ????
Later Blakemore made them (quite a story) and then he was bought out by another person (name right on my tounge and cannot spit it out) who kept the name and then it went to where it is now.....
Pony .. Horse Heads have been around a long time.
Even all that I would not try to"Buck Them" with the coverage they have on Rights. You might could win but you would spend more than you would ever make out of them.
My 2 cents worth.
JSC
:)
Side note .. Tom Mann made a "Road Runner" took the head and made it into an inline spinner bait ... I sold him the mold (I had made a bunch of heads with swiveles molded in and he finshed them off) and he modified it ... Did not sell to well .. I think he made only a few runs of it ... I t was a take off of the "Snagless Sally" do not think he registered the Roadrunner name but it was made before Blakemore used the name.
It was not until 1994 that Blakemore got the Trademark and even though they have been made much longer they have the trademark.
Skip
I've been making the RoadRunner style baits for several years. I've never sold any jigs and probably never will, I just happen to use them a lot. For the most part, it's a moot issue, as you will find out if you start tying some. They are very labor intensive and would require a price that would be hard for most fishermen to pay.
That said, I would be lost without my RR molds. They are fish catching machines and I use a lot of them. If you fish with them much at all, it justifies tying your own. Just check the prices of the original in any catalog and it's easy to see you can justify tying your own.
You are right SM about them catching fish and I will even take it farther. I sell Roadrunner and yes they take a lot more time and are not really worth the time spent and then selling them, but I want to offer my customers a hand tied Roadrunner so I do. I spent a couple of years getting the right to buy the unpainted heads and them to let me tie and sell them. I use to have to let the customer buy the RR heads and send them to me to tie, but thankfully I finally got it going so I can paint and tie them. They are a lot of trouble though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich Maker
I use them my self, but I also have some made that are not real RR's and have a different hook. I can't sell these, but I can fish with them.
In the spring there is not much that will catch crappie on the pace with them.
Skip
A tip or two if you pour some.....tie the body/tail before attatching the split ring and blade. They make tying troublesome. I have had the best luck in painting the heads by simply grabbing the swivel with a pair of needlenose pliers and swishing it through the powder paint. While the paint's still warm, run a wire (a straightened out hook with the barb cut off works well) through the eye. It will goo up a little, but in a minute or so it will be brittle and the jig eye will clean right out. Then I bake em and tie them. Last thing is attatching the ring and blade.
I order my swivels and split rings from Jann's. Quality and price seem to be better. Barlows blades work well.
They are aggrivating to tie, but thet are worth it.
Just another 2 cents worth to this discussion ... attached photo .. at bottom is a Paul Ament Mold I purchased in the early 60's (I think 62) Made some modification to it .. had a production mold made of the 1/4 oz .... that is the one I sold to Tom Mann ... the mold at the top is a custom production mold I had made later on by Paul (late 60's) ... 2 of the lures from this mold are shown below it ... I have caught a lot of small Bass and this past year had a real good year with Redfish .. "Chubs" (a type of warmouth) really like it as have some bluegill & croakers ... have not worked it in crappie waters lately.
So the Pony -- Horses Head has been around before I purchased the mold in the early 60's.
JSC
:)
I wonder if someone could modify the mold and simply call them something different? I don't know much about rights to it but I have seen a lot of very similar molds that have just enough modification to them that they are new and do not fall under the rights or patents.
I want to get one someday with connectors on both sides.
I make the Pony Heads too and like everyone else if you use alot it's worth it to make your own.
On the question of " wonder if someone could modify the mold and simply call them something different? I don't know much about rights to it but I have seen a lot of very similar molds that have just enough modification to them that they are new and do not fall under the rights or patents."
Not much of a chance, I was reading BassMaster magazine before I let my subscription run out and a guy make a jig head that was different but TTI went after him and he had to change the whole thing before he was legal.
Hell if TTI wants to catch people look on ebay!!!!!! Lots of folks selling them on there
Fatman
Hilts mold (1/32) on the left and another Ament mold. Going to be getting rid of 4 of the hilts molds (no handles)....
Attachment 23818
Attachment 23819
Somehow I think they will. I think they are just letting people get a bit too comfortable making them and selling them and one day soon the hammer will drop. I am sure it will cost not a lot more to go after many then just one so maybe they are just waiting on enough to make it worth doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatman
Just my opinion,
Skip
Hey Skip!Quote:
Originally Posted by skiptomylu
Didn't believe this when I first read it, but Skip's right.
okay will people prob. wont think this but here it goes....was talking to a big time tackle dealer and this is what he had to say about the whole thing....blakemore will do nothing to you for selling "pony heads" as long as you dont sell them calling them "Road Runner" due to the fact their pat. is up...a pat. is only goiod for 20 years...they like to say that they will take you to court and sue you and try to nail you to the wall...they took a company to court in 2001 and the court case feel tho because there Pat. was over 20yrs old...now they dont even waste their time trying to take people to court they just like to say they will....the guy that told me this is a big time dealer for alot of top names and he sells "Road Runner" as well as "Pony Head" and said he has had this happen to him as well...so this is what i am going by and you can go by what you want
Clearly he is not well informed as it is not a Patent it is a Trademark! DO you think the guy that lost his business that was making Stump Jumpers thinks that what you say is true? He was not using Roadrunner name and they took his business and now they make Stump Jumpers. So if you feel lucky I guess you do what you think you can, but I know better and I know that is total BS!Quote:
Originally Posted by CrappieKillerJigs
CKJ I am sure you will be happy to pay the lawyer bills for anyone you miss inform huh?
SKip
Skip's right.
Spent 1/2 day doing the research.
Was going to buy the mold and pour them just to give them away, but not enough time in the day for me to pour & paint jigs just to spite them.
I don't worry about it since I don't sell them anyway. Poured up some today. They can fight with Do-It Molds (again) if they like.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...1233185246.jpg
Once you tie a jig on them does the patent still stand true? I won't ever get a mold or sell them, just curious.
blakemoore has a trademark on the head configuration. a trademark never expires as long as the maintenance fees are paid. a patent is only good for 20 years as long as the maintenance fees are paid. as long as the fees are paid and the trade mark is in force you risk legal action for selling a product that in aperence could be confused with a "roadrunner" That is why you never see a pony head lure in any chain stores except blakemoores nomatter what is applied to the hook plastic or feather.
"Hilts mold (1/32) on the left and another Ament mold.... LedHed"
First time I had seen either of these 2 molds ... That Aments Precision Mold will get it done.
TTYL
JSC
:)
Not a Patent, but the Trademark is going to be there for a very long time I am sure. The design of the head is what is Trademarked not anything else so will not make any difference what you do to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_4_all
OK guys here is what the guy that use to make Stump Jumpers sent me in a email that explains the trademark.
trademark invoves ANY PONY HEAD that is GENERALLY A
RIGHT ANGLED HEAD with the eye in the general area of
the bend and includes any and all comercial sales of
the head to anyone without blakemoe licensing the sale
and getting a royalty off each sale
So unless you want to lose your business like this guy did I think you may want to consider just fishing with them and catching fish. If you want to sell them then buy their heads for BPS or who ever you want to.
Skip
lets see if TTI/Blakemore wants ta tangle with these guys...
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/100_3839.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/100_3838.jpg
JAKE
CrappieDentist
I think you missed this statement in Skips post:
"Clearly he is not well informed as it is not a Patent it is a Trademark! DO you think the guy that lost his business that was making Stump Jumpers thinks that what you say is true? He was not using Roadrunner name and they took his business and now they make Stump Jumpers
So BPS doesn't need to fight with Blakemore cause they're buying them from Blakemore!!
Fatman
Fatman,,
In that case I can pour pony heads & sell them right... just not under the raodrunner name or stump jumper name or any other name that has been trademarked,, am I looking at this correct....
JAKE
All right, here it is. It is the SHAPE of the lead that is trade marked. If you have a custom mold made with the lead head NOT HAVEING A BEND in it, you can make and sell them. "RIGHT ANGLED HEAD with the eye in the general area of the bend". Any one that wants to make their own version just has to make, or have made, a mold that does not have the hook eye in the general area of the bend. Since jig heads are so small, that pretty well covers any head with a bend in it. Therefore, make a triangle shaped head with the spinner on the bottom point and you are in business and blakemore can't say diddly. You will not be infringing on their trademark as the "trademark" is the shape of the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiptomylu
If you sell them and get busted you were warned!!! No matter how you slice it you CAN"T do it.
I have to find the article in BassMaster about the guy who designed the new jig with the blade on the back for swimbaits and all the hell he went through with Blakemore!! And it was within the last year.
Fatman
I was a little curious to see who was right here so I did a little research, and it looks like the nod goes to skiptomylu.
from: Example Trademark Devices (BitLaw)
"Product shape :
A product or container shape can also serve a source identifying function and therefore can be an enforceable trademark. A product or container shape may also be subject to a design patent (see the BitLaw discussion of design patents to see an analysis of the similarities and differences between design patents and trademark protection for product shapes). Historically, trademark protection was not granted to product shapes until the consuming public recognized the shape as indicating the source of the product. In other words, the product shape was required to obtained secondary meaning. However, recent court decisions may mean that an inherently distinctive product shape can be a protectable trademark even before secondary meaning is obtained. Examples of product shapes and configurations that likely enjoy trademark status include:" Coke bottle for one. The Roadrunner does have a distinctive shape.
First use was 1968, and trademarked in 1981.
I just looked for sites that sell pony heads and found 2 that sell unpainted heads with swivel and without blades. so from what I read and I did'nt read everyone of the post but quite a few. These sites are breaking the law? wont say the names cause I love the sites lol
Yes and they can be sude by TTI-Blakemore and wouldn't be the first. I had lot of email back and forth with the guy that use to make Stump Jumpers and he lost his business over this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggin_Joe
So they are taking a huge risk and if TTI-Blakemore decide to press it this year then they could be in real trouble.
Oh and TTI-Blakemore make Stump Jumpers for BPS now too. Does anyone really believe that if someone else could make them for BPS they wouldn't have them?
Skip