Livescope Questions for Deep Thinkers - Crappie Display Returns

Using FFS out 20’ and down ~10’ my ideal returns are those bright “dimes” that appear on screen. Up until recently I thought that the crappie(s) were perpendicular to the transducer. But lately I find myself rethinking that idea.

FFS is only able to display distance and depth. Width (left/right) can only be known by sweeping the transducer to both sides of the object to determine the brightest return. It is my understanding that at a particular forward distance from the transducer only a single pixel can be displayed indicating the presence of an object. I imagine that Garmin displays the most centered and hardest object at that exact distance that remain in the cone.

Here is my question -
When those beautiful “dimes” appear on screen, is the fish perpendicular or facing the transducer?

Hope I explained that above clearly.

I would think that the bigger blotches of color would come from seeing the fish broadside, rather than head-on. And the bigger the fish, the bigger the signal return.

As far as a single pixel signal return at distance ... 60' out is about as far as I set my forward distance, and if there's anything out there it's mostly going to show me a bunch of ////// shaped lines ... sometimes it's a school of fish & sometimes it's a brushpile or standing trees. As I get closer to those "lines", they will eventually form a better representation.

Now, I'm using the lvs32 transducer and have never updated the system since purchasing it (many years ago).

I think when you're getting the best returns they are broadside too

Here’s my .02 and some days it’s not worth that.
The best return in when the fish is facing the transducer.
My reason for this is because the bone structure gives the best return and shines like a dime from it. When the fish is perpendicular/sideways to the transducer, it’s thinner and the ping has a faded look to it. See how the fish really glow in the video is how I came to this conclusion. But again, it’s only my .02.

https://youtube.com/shorts/a1rgtNaRx...Ke7iRMiOHxYkBb

Krappie Krane
Your video, when it shows the fish swimming after the bait to bite is an excellent example of what I’ve been contemplating. We know that fish is swimming towards your bait because the bait is swinging towards you. And the fish and your bait are equally bright. The fish has a “dime” like appearance and the shimmy of the tail is clearly seen. So from this, can we conclude that when the fish is pointing directly towards or away from the transducer we get “dimes”?

What do we see when the fish is perpendicular?

I have been thinking about this test for quite a while -
1- Kill the fish so as to be humane
2- Skewer the fish on a pole in such a way that it won’t turn on the rod.
3- Push the pole into the mud bottom with the fish turned in various positions (or have a helper stand on a dock to hold the pole).
4- Position the boat and transducer at various distances to view results.
5- Turn the fish straight on, sideways, and maybe other angles to learn EXACTLY what livescope is telling us.

Speaking for myself, and I’d bet many others, Livescope seems to defy our common sense. We are used to seeing in 3D and many times fail to realize that LS can ONLY show 2D.

My LS mentor, Randy Carpenter (aka the Garmin Guru) has, IMO the very beat teachings on LS FFS. Take a look at this video.
https://youtu.be/yNfKGDDo_T8?si=eycy63FpUZ3NApOM

Please share your opinions. I am inquisitive and want to learn. If my thinking is wrong, let me know. I am an eternal student.

Deadly Dan,
I’ll get a video of a sideways fish soon.
It’s definitely different and has a faded look to the sonar return. It shows a ghostly shape but it gets bright when the fish turns to chase the jig. You normally only see the ghostly shape when searching for the fish but will change when scanned from a different angle. Guess it’s why we scan 180 degrees continuously and watching for the dimes.

KrappieKrane,
Looking forward to that video.

Common sense gets me in trouble when looking at LS. LOL
There’s so much to learn…

When I watched Randy's video, I understood what he was saying, as far as what's showing on the screen vs the "position" of the objects being scoped. But, I also noticed that the tree on the far left of the 5 trees showing on the screen was a thinner line of color vs the other 4 trees ... and when you look at the actual trees, sure enough the tree closest to the boat IS a thinner tree trunk than the others behind it. That's why I wonder how a fish pointed towards the transducer can make a bigger color blotch than one coming from the side of the jig, showing more surface area to the sonar ping.

We’re going deep here, CrappiePappy. AND I like it.
Attachment 498926
I wonder if objects are not only dimmer, but smaller as they are positioned away from the center of the scope cone.

Just realized that the ONLY WAY to know tree is which is to know the exact distance of each tree from the transducer.

The last statement brings me to another question that I plan to address in a separate post. Don’t want to muddy the waters. Maybe make a series of post with the subject line starting, “Livescope Questions for Deep Thinkers - ______”.

How's that? I think that is the one you wanted removed.

Thanks, Dave. I appreciate your help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrappiePappy

When I watched Randy's video, I understood what he was saying, as far as what's showing on the screen vs the "position" of the objects being scoped. But, I also noticed that the tree on the far left of the 5 trees showing on the screen was a thinner line of color vs the other 4 trees ... and when you look at the actual trees, sure enough the tree closest to the boat IS a thinner tree trunk than the others behind it. That's why I wonder how a fish pointed towards the transducer can make a bigger color blotch than one coming from the side of the jig, showing more surface area to the sonar ping.

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My thoughts are "target density", similar to how a hard bottom shows up different on traditional sonar, down and side imaging.

Another thing to consider with live sonar is that the farther objects are from the center of the beam the more dim they become. I've explained it to guys using a flashlight with a very focused beam as an example. While we can see objects that are on the peripheral of the light, they aren't very bright and not as detailed.

This and $2.50 will buy you a cup of coffee in some places.

Justin, “That's why I wonder how a fish pointed towards the transducer can make a bigger color blotch than one coming from the side of the jig, showing more surface area to the sonar ping”
Target Density is an interesting point. Never considered that. Are you thinking that when a crappie is facing the transducer it produces a more dense target than when it is perpendicular? There is definitely more target depth when the fish is straight on, either facing towards or away from the transducer. Are you thinking that the circle (the dime) is displayed because of target density and not target shape?

Have I understood you correctly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeadlyDan

Justin, “That's why I wonder how a fish pointed towards the transducer can make a bigger color blotch than one coming from the side of the jig, showing more surface area to the sonar ping”
Target Density is an interesting point. Never considered that. Are you thinking that when a crappie is facing the transducer it produces a more dense target than when it is perpendicular? There is definitely more target depth when the fish is straight on, either facing towards or away from the transducer. Are you thinking that the circle (the dime) is displayed because of target density and not target shape?

Have I understood you correctly?

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I'm thinking it's both. I think when fish are facing directly at or away from the TD the image is brighter because of density. Have you ever noticed when a fish turns away, they seem to look like a ghost? I think the angle of the beam and where the fish are in relation to the TD contributes the shape.

I can tell you, I'm not a deep thinker, just ask anyone that knows me! LOL

So Justin, do you think the screen representation of the fish facing the TD will be round like a dime even though the fish’s body is narrow and tall?

BTW -
I am contemplating the best way to conduct the test mentioned above.
At this time I’m thinking a small diameter PVC pipe about 8’ tall (our waters are shallow) with a small cement base to hold the pole erect or simply push the pole into the mud bottom. Haven’t finalized exactly how to skewer the fish to the pole so that they remain in place. One fish facing the TD and the second positioned perpendicular to the first. Ideally fish of equal size. A directional arrow will be placed at the top of the pole and standing out of the water to indicate the position of the top fish. May place the apparatus in the middle of open water so in order to eliminate too much background noise.

If anyone has thoughts or suggestions for this test please let me know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeadlyDan

So Justin, do you think the screen representation of the fish facing the TD will be round like a dime even though the fish’s body is narrow and tall?

BTW -
I am contemplating the best way to conduct the test mentioned above.
At this time I’m thinking a small diameter PVC pipe about 8’ tall (our waters are shallow) with a small cement base to hold the pole erect or simply push the pole into the mud bottom. Haven’t finalized exactly how to skewer the fish to the pole so that they remain in place. One fish facing the TD and the second positioned perpendicular to the first. Ideally fish of equal size. A directional arrow will be placed at the top of the pole and standing out of the water to indicate the position of the top fish. May place the apparatus in the middle of open water so in order to eliminate too much background noise.

If anyone has thoughts or suggestions for this test please let me know.

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From seeing them swim up to a bait from behind, I do.

The closest tree ( return) is closer to the transducer when pointing at it so it is brighter because it is absorbing more of the sound waves from the transducer. Now that you think about it a person would really have to be able to see the crappie the scope is looking at to figure out if our thinking is right on their positioning or not. Naturally they look broadsided when brightest, but our line does too when in line with a fish return. :dono