Instinct - a fish's best friend or worst enemy

As I was throwing bits of bread to 20 sunfish in my pond, watching them knock heads on the surface going after them, one thing occurred to me: fish have instincts when it comes to what is edible (or not) even if they've never seen something like bread or an earthworm in their lifetime.

The same thing goes for eight small turtles that come near from different directions once they hear the surface splashes made by the sunfish. Bread is not part of their diet but they fight each other for bits of bread as do sunfish that race in to grab the bread from their mouths in shallow water.

Today I cast a Floating Rapala to test a rod/reel combo and sure enough it was attacked by sunfish on the surface over eight FOW. I didn't want to catch them and yanked the lure away, but on the next cast a crappie got hooked in the same spot.

I thought: a Rapala's action resembles no swimming action of a fish when retrieved steadily. It waddles causing two sets of trebles to click on their split rings. Instinct didn't alert them that the object was not edible so why the strikes?

Possible answere? A fish's senses are finely tuned to what moves around in their imediate proximity - alive or manmade. If something is alive or not, as in the case of bread bits, instinct decides if the object is worth eating.

If the feeding instinct doesn't kick in, something else provokes a fish to attack starting with its supersensitive senses (visual and vibrational), leading to a - who's the boss now?! - bully attack. Could be curiousity, could be a lure-induced irritation - like when we slap at a biting insects that pricks our skin multiple times.

Various Lures are chosen for different reasons - simulation not one of them. Bread and earthworms are instinctually sensed as edible whereas lures are not put into that category. I believe lures are attacked simply because predators can be bullies too!

I respectfully disagree that fish don't think "lures" are resembling something they normally eat. With all the different species of fish in a given body of water, that are small enough for a Crappie to eat & with multiple hues of coloration (or just a simple blk/wht contrast), they learn by watching others in the school. If they don't, they'll eventually perish.

I'm also not convinced that Crappie attack a lure out of pure "meanness". Just doesn't play out in my mind that's why they bite a lure, in most cases. Now, during the Spawn, the Male "may" be trying to force the intruding lure out of his nest, either by chasing it away (if it flees) or "biting" at it (if it doesn't flee fast enough). I've seen, firsthand, male Crappie and Bass pick a lure out of their nesting spot and swim outside that perimeter & spit it out. I've also seen them inhale the lure & not move from the spot they were occupying at that time. That's "protection", not "meanness" or "aggravation".

And when I'm watching them on Livescope ... and put it right in their face & have them turn & hurriedly swim away from a lure not much bigger than their eyeball, thinking of them as "bullies" just don't fit, IMHO. And when those fish follow the lure for several feet, up and away from their cover, and then grab that lure .... to me that's "feeding", not bullying.

Now, I'm not saying that "all" fish react that way for the same reasons, and some of them may well be "bullies" and are aggravated by the presence of an intruding lure. But, I'm less concerned about what other "fish" think & do, and concentrate on how I know & can see how Crappie react to the lures I present to them.

As far as Bluegills racing to the surface after bread bits ... they occasionally do the same for my line where it breaks the water's surface. That's just "instinct" ... a reaction to the vibrations & smell created by the bread bits entering the water (& maybe a false imitation of a "bug" landing in the water). Heck, I've even had them suck in ashes from my ciggy :yikes (& immediately spit it out, of course) :Rofl

:popcorn

Both

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I respectfully disagree that fish don't think "lures" are resembling something they normally eat

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Creative imagination is a wonderful thing but it requires the mental ability to have one - something fish don't possess IMO. Their brains are simple, incapable of imagining that a Mepps spinner is a fish or any other animal they might attack because of its shape or action. The list is huge of lures fish attack that look nor act like anything in nature. For all fish know, the moving object is an alien that doesn't quite belong but might be worth the effort to see what's what.

Chosing a lure based on what a fish thinks it might be is an unnecesarry step using one's imagination, not the fish's. There are lures that do resemble prey that fish normally eat, but because of technical issues such as poor action or the way a lure is retrieved, ignores it every time like a leaf in the water. In fact, most lures I've caught fish on do have specific qualities I've noticed that set them apart from other lure designs. The Rat L Trap is one.

Been around for decades and catch fish most of the year. Anyone that's caught fish on them notice the noisey BBs, the tight fast shimmy with clanking hooks and the strobe-like, flashing chrome body that one can't help but see the poor fished hooked as dumber than a rock!

As I said, the list of lure shapes and actions, not to mention weird colors such a flourescent pink, orange and chartreuse that don't deter aggression, is massive. In fact you or I can catch fish on the same lure in the same color - anytime fish can be provoked into striking.

If I had to choose only one lure to catch most fish that attack lures, it would be the one shown in pearl or white - no other colors necessary. Intermittent tail quiver is key when the lure is worked slow that could very well tickle-the-lateral line for all I know vs thumping it like the Rat L Trap. You think minnow; I think - itty bitty tail that po's fish. It will outfish 95% of the huge number of lures I own - period!

But lure variety is the spice of fishing examplified by the large number of lure modifications I've posted on this and many other forums. So cool to be able to catch fish on surface lures and then mid-depth lures and then bottom jigged lures on the same or different outings using many lure shapes, actions and colors. To just simply catch fish, one would only need a worm and a float. To catch fish by using my imagination when it comes to lure design, blows me away every time a fish is hooked!

Fish are born into a world where competition rules. If there is a dumb bug thrashing on the surface, a fish will scream up and grab it before his litter mates beat him to it. If it isn’t a bug at all, but rather something inedible, he will simply spit it out. Maybe his buddy will grab it next, and he will spit it out. Fish grab things all the time that are inedible, and they simply spit them back out. Fish in an aquarium can be seen doing this with gravels and such. In fact, they are very adapt at spitting. Happens all the time.

Last week, I was feeding pizza bones to some sunfish and watching them thrash at it. They would grab a piece and try to swim off with it before the others could try to claim it. Then here comes a bass to see what’s up. Then some wading birds, then turtles, and finally a baby alligator showed up. After a few days, the fish would swarm when they saw me step onto the dock. Competition.

If a lure is close enough……well it’s close enough to work.

a possible food source is a possible food source is the word
if it looks even remotely like a possible food source it is likely to get the taste test
fish don't think , they see things differently than we do ...
typically it is similar in all the lower level brain function critters ....
you are food , you are a friend or your are an enemy ....pretty simple
instinctively speaking lets' eat , let's run or let's do the wild monkey dance ....:Rofl

Good read. Enjoyed the opinions.
Bob

Fish eat for a for several reasons and it's not always hunger. If they'll hit they weight on my line they'll hit anything!

As a side note bread is not good for fish or turtles, might try fish food or even cheap dog food.

:cheers2

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Fish grab things all the time that are inedible

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....some things far more than others and it has everything to do with a zero IQ. Relevant are the fish we catch that still have a lure stuck in its mouth! Obviously fish don't learn from their mistakes but remember the good stuff such as:
[QUOTE]After a few days, the fish would swarm when they saw me step onto the dock.[/QUOTE]
That's the same exact thing that happens in my pond: fish and turtles swim towards me as I step on the dock. In fact, sun fish from different parts of the pond start to swim towards me as they see me walking down the hill, leaving wakes behind them.
Here's a shot of the little buggers waiting for a starchy snack:
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(You'd think they'd learn after consuming many such snacks that starch is not part of their normal diet.)
Their home in my backyard:
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a fish will scream up and grab it before his litter mates beat him to it.

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Same thing happens as far as the sunfish and turtles (who attack another turtle if a mate snatches it first).

Never heard that starch harms fish. I recognize some of the older sunfish and turtles with certain markings that have come to me from a few years back. But sharp hooks embedded deep in the gullet and yanked free, I would imagine do far more harm than bits of bread a few times a week.

I’ve always wondered if fish attack lures based on food/hunger OR based on it being a reaction/threat.

I had aquariums for years and when I’d open the top all the fish would swim up towards me, I assumed it was because normally the top opens at feeding time and they were hungry.

Today I fished a lake that has been let down for home owner dock repairs. Fish have relocated to open water from pad areas that are too low. The bite was phenomenal. I limited my lure choice to a few - using the ones that proved reactionary.
Fish pounded the soft plastic collection cast rigged on 1/32 or 1/24 oz ball head jigs in water less than 4' and with no cover. All were modified in the past.
One example: a Sassy Shad that had the belly cut off to allow for more shimmy. I caught crappie from 9"-11" that slammed it!:
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Would an unaltered lure have worked? Did the lure fool the fish into thinking it was a fish. Don't know, don't care, same for this spike tail that caught a bunch. (Note the one on the right was a mod using a grub body and a spike tail):
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Many of the lures were hit 5x on the first retrieve and then caught on the 2nd. The fish were that excited!

Number 1: location fish were found in
Number 2: proper jig weight matched to depth fish found in.
Number 3. lure shapes that fish are prone to attack in the depth range found

Maybe they thought the lures were snacks. Never entered my mind or my choice of lures. Lure size and action, matched to the retrieve used resulted in 97 fish caught/ 5 species.
Even a tube worked:

I see all those lures as being "minnow shaped" (long, thin, w/tail action). In other words, they look like what the fish normally consider as "food" ... not a "threat" or "intruder" into their space.

Wonder how many fish you would have caught with a piece of plastic that was "square" or "rectangle" shaped ??

Under those particular conditions, you'd likely have caught as many or more using a 1/16 or 1/32oz marabou Road Runner :biggrin

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I see all those lures as being "minnow shaped"

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Now that's what I call an imagination - but not the fish's!

Regardless, there are a slew of minnow-shaped and other-shaped lures that would not have caught fish or at least gotten smacked as hard or as often. But if you want to think bon appetit when choosing lures, hey, whatever works for you!

IMHO a fish's brain is like a combination lock; a lure - the combination that includes: overall shape: how long and how big around the body; tail size and action; colors that may enhance shape and action, jig and hook size, rate and type retrieve, etc.

Labeling a lure doesn't mean anything to a fish whereas having the right combinations in my tackle box - does. I will cast a Mann's Shadow Minnow imitation today and see how it compares to spike tails. If it does well, it isn't because it's shaped like a fish though it may have a similar action. But as many of us know, lure action matters most - either inherent and/or applied.

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Wonder how many fish you would have caught with a piece of plastic that was "square" or "rectangle" shaped ??

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Here are a few more that most definitely don't look like any animal that ever lived yet have caught a bunch:
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The Joker (below) has also proven itself along with the bulb, whiskers wacky-rigged and 5 1/2" Softie Worm rigged on a 1/24 oz jig. The actions and shapes of each lure are unique and unnatural.

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Originally Posted by Spoonminnow

Here are a few more that most definitely don't look like any animal that ever lived yet have caught a bunch:
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The Joker (below) has also proven itself along with the bulb, whiskers wacky-rigged and 5 1/2" Softie Worm rigged on a 1/24 oz jig. The actions and shapes of each lure are unique and unnatural.

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Looks kinda like worms and grubs to me. lol I am a firm believer like most here including yourself, presentation is everything. I also believe shape and color doesn't matter... until it does. We all have changed bait shapes and colors until we trigger strikes. Whether it is instinct, getting smarter, or just pressure I'm not sure, but i do try to make my bait look like food and it seems to work most days.

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try to make my bait look like food and it seems to work most days.

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Would like to see examples.

Advice to anyone that want to see what makes a lure superior or sets it apart from others:
Notice a lures action in the water at the usual retrieve rate including imparted action. Note anything that may contribute to why it gets reaction strikes such as a tail quiver, wobble, action when darted throu gh the water, pulsation of a skirt or anything else that sets it apart. Fish are detail oriented when it comes to subtle actions and vibrations so common in nature shown by prey. Less subtle actions less so but at times rewarding. (i.e. Pop R)

ALL good past and present lures have design attributes that were intentionally aimed for by the designers with no intention of making fish believe the lure was a prey animal.

My mods are intended to look and move a certain way regardless of what a fish thinks. The proof is in the catching - not in convincing a dumb creature of anything.

"ALL good past and present lures have design attributes that were intentionally aimed for by the designers with no intention of making fish believe the lure was a prey animal."

OoooooKAY ... so why do mfg's name their lures .... "minnow", "Shad", "craw", "worm", etc. ?? And why do they make them near spittin images of said creatures, in size, shape, color, and even scent ??

But, you are correct that a fish's brain isn't in the Einstein category, and they act/react by instinct & curiosity, and maybe even sometimes from downright "meanness". We attribute their actions & reactions to what "we" think they're thinking, as we have no way of knowing exactly why they do what they do at times. All we can do is experiment & document, rinse & repeat, until we get the results we want. I'd say the lure mfg's follow the same principal during the R&D phase before presenting a "new" lure to the angling public.

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Originally Posted by CrappiePappy

[COLOR=#333333]
OoooooKAY ... so why do mfg's name their lures .... "minnow", "Shad", "craw", "worm", etc. ?? ]

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Well since I don't think fish can read the names of lures - I highly doubt a lure named Fish Repellant or Fish Deterrent would sell like hotcakes? :Rofl

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Originally Posted by CrappiePappy

"ALL good past and present lures have design attributes that were intentionally aimed for by the designers with no intention of making fish believe the lure was a prey animal."

OoooooKAY ... so why do mfg's name their lures .... "minnow", "Shad", "craw", "worm", etc. ?? And why do they make them near spittin images of said creatures, in size, shape, color, and even scent ??

But, you are correct that a fish's brain isn't in the Einstein category, and they act/react by instinct & curiosity, and maybe even sometimes from downright "meanness". We attribute their actions & reactions to what "we" think they're thinking, as we have no way of knowing exactly why they do what they do at times. All we can do is experiment & document, rinse & repeat, until we get the results we want. I'd say the lure mfg's follow the same principal during the R&D phase before presenting a "new" lure to the angling public.

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Thank you CP you were able to say it better than I.

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

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so why do mfg's name their lures .... "minnow", "Shad", "craw", "worm", etc. ?? And why do they make them near spittin images of said creatures, in size, shape, color, and even scent ??

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uhhh, could it be so people would buy them? For every "near spittin image" there are 50 that resemble nothing in nature in action, shape or color. If you haven't noticed that in all your decades of fishing lures, I can't help you.

In my last reply, my suggestion when it comes to lure choice, is based on testing and observing a lure in the water that did well and continue using it just in case its success was one time thing. You can name it tiddlywinks and dip it in fish guts for all I care. What's important is to evaluate lures based on their attributes and not on company ads or a fishing guru, which most of the time feed into the flights of fantasy of suckers and newbies alike.

Cast what works - PERIOD! I did today and yesterday which accounted for 152 fish/ 5 species per the two outings. Got pictures if anyone is interested.

Sorry but none are"minnows", "Shads", "craws", "worms", etc. In fact, they have names that describe their shapes like: light bulb, whiskers, rat tail, thin/flat tail, Mo Magic Grub (mold name), Softie Worm (to destingush it from other plastic worms), claw, thumper (boot tail), mini hot dog, cone tail, long taper and the list goes on.

ALL have caught fish at one time or other and still do!
(Of course, if I were to sell any of them I'd have to rename them "minnow", "Shad", "craw", "worm", etc.)

So the following don't exist, and don't mimic the critter they're named after ??

Berkley Gulp Trout Worm
Berkley Gulp Minnow
BPS Paddle Tail Minnow
Northland Mimic Shad
Southern Pro Crappie Craw
Bobby Garland Baby Shad
Strike King Scizzor Shad
Basstrix Flash Trix Silverside
Slabanator Mud Bugz


And of course they're named that so people will buy them, but that's because they mimic what's normally considered "food" by the fish species the angler is after.

And just exactly what occurs naturally "in Nature" that your creations resemble ??

If I just wanted to catch "fish", I'd tie on a 1/16oz marabou Road Runner in Chartreuse on 4# test line and start flinging it. I've already racked up a 12# Tiger Muskie, 4# Smallmouth, several 3-4# Largemouth, countless Catfish/Drum/Panfish, some SkipJack Shad (Blue Herring), White Bass, and Hybrid Striped Bass on that very bait. But, most of those species were bycatches when targeting Crappie, which is my primary species of interest.

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Originally Posted by keeferfish

Well since I don't think fish can read the names of lures - I highly doubt a lure named Fish Repellant or Fish Deterrent would sell like hotcakes? :Rofl

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The zero bites minnow , yep , sounds ketchy to me …..
With a for sure zero to no kaboom guarantee in the small print ….:yikes:Rofl:Rofl

Again, imagination is a wonderful thing until it steers you into making up lies to tell yourself that fits your narrative. Scissor Shad for example.

The lures on top are a combination of grub body and Joker Grub tails.
The one below it has similar tails and a fat shape unlike that of any shad. It neither look nor moves like anything that ever lived - including a shad. Color assortment also looks nothing like that of a fish.

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Only you believes the lure gets bit because fish think the lure is some sort of prey fish.
I'm sure all of your examples fall into the category of:
lies I told myself to justify buying more crap I didn't need :bash

and not because fish strike them for the reasons you imagine. 2+2 does not = 7! (I bet you closed your eyes reaching into the tackle box to chose a lure from the assortment you listed. You wouldn't just happen to be a sponsor of any of them - are you?)

BTW - Ya think a lure that looks like the clown fish is a reasonable shad imitation? Bet you would, though the clown fish is a far cry from any north American shad I 've seen though much closer than your Scissor Shad.

I think for a long time, fishermen have been suckered into new baits. I know I have. But I buy baits also that I have had success with and that I think will make a fish bite. Some do, and some don't. I have the example you wanted. There is a reason we chase bait fish. Whether we are fishing for bass, crappie, or most fish. I'm going to do this post and stop and just say we disagree and agree on certain things. What do the lures in these photos mimic to you? Those "Steel Shad" are a really versatile lure that can catch about anything. They can be fished about any way you want. But what do you think they are imitating? I do think you are right about fish being dumb. But, I think the pressure they have been put under has made them smarter. Maybe instead of smarter, i should say we made them adapt. I hope you have a good day and get to fish and catch a bunch. Attachment 471630

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What do the lures in these photos mimic ?
Wish I could say they do, but the realist in me says differently. Again, none of those lures are exact copies of anything fish eat - not in shape nor action. Putting a name tag on a pig doesn't change what it is, can or can not do.

Key is that lures do well but for reasons you and many others won't or can't accept having to do with fish senses but no brains to speak of. Lure design specifics set them apart. Lure design is like a recipe: it either passes the taste test or not - taste - figuratively speaking.

As far as fishing pressure and fish adapting to it? No agreement at all. Fish move around for unknown reasons but patterns do happen where fish can be found and caught day after day in the same week.

I caught fish yesterday in the same area as the day before and many bigger fish at that. Hooking fish in a school should be a clue that something with hooks is not to be messed with. But noooo - one after another gets caught because.... ? Kinda goes back to the lack of a thought process.

(BTW : Scent?!!! Kinda like adding perfume to a pig. No one cares except maybe the pig.) :biggrin

I'm thinking that "fish" don't always care if the lure looks exactly like something real in Nature. Get it close enough to their strike zone and they're gonna take notice. Your "creations" are a prime example of that. But I still reject the notion that lures "aggravate" fish into biting them (all the time). If their prey species had to aggravate them into eating them, as opposed to stimulating them into feeding upon them, then most of those "fish" would die of starvation within the first year of their lives. Most "fish" are sight feeders, primarily, but also rely on scent & picking up vibrations thru their lateral lines.

I'll continue to "lie" to myself, and continue to catch Crappie (like I've been doing successfully for the past 65yrs), if you don't mind. And you can continue to do your thing & catch "fish".

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I'm thinking that "fish" don't always care if the lure looks exactly like something real in Nature

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Good, because most lures don't even come close.

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rely on scent

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Where's the research that proves it helps? Carp feeding on a rotting animal -maybe.

Common scenario: Fish are surrounded by bait fish but don't feed, yet a lure comes into the strike zone and BAM! I would bet that happens 99% of the time.
I like the name of a company that sells lures: Reaction Innovations
Says it all. Fish react to my or another's innovations that meet the requirements of size, shape and action.
Any one of those wrong - no strikes.

Example: yesterday I was not getting strikes on one design and size. Switched to one smaller with a finesse tail and caught a fish and then another and then another. The school was turned on and bit time!

Moved parallel to shore to the south and same thing - used a small lure - turned on inactive fish and then went larger, as well as testing different lure shapes on 3 other rods.

Natural is in the eye of the beholder. Coincidence happens when a lure moves and looks natural to the angler but maybe not a factor for fish striking it. I caught fish on Mann's Shadow and granted it looks like a minnow, but so what?
Attachment 471653
Just because a lure looks a certain way doesn't guarantee strikes. I had to reduce jig weight to get it to work slower in less than 4' where fish were schooled. Jig weight can enhance a lure's action or kill it same as hook size. The other thing was the retrieve. It never works on a steady retrieve but does well jigging it off bottom and then a few feet parallel to bottom. Technical considerations matter far more than guessing what fish believes what a lure is supposed to represent!

Again 8 different shapes caught with over 140 fish in two days! Obviously I wasn't trying to match anything!

Note: Other photos in previous reply.

Nice to compare ideas, but for the most part I am putting these out for everyone to consider. Your way may work for some guessing why fish strike; my way works for anyone I've fished with or that have read my posts with photo proof don't have to guess.

"Your way may work for some guessing why fish strike; my way works for anyone I've fished with or that have read my posts with photo proof don't have to guess."

LOL !! Actually, your lures shown are not all that different than what I'm usually using. And mine don't look "exactly" like a real critter that fish would feed on, in either size, action, or color. They just come close enough to peak the interest of the particular fish I'm looking to catch. I could care less about getting bit by Bluegill, Bass, Perch, or most any of the other species available in my waters. I don't even count them as "catches" when the day is done.

BTW ... if "scent" isn't a factor in fish feeding, why have I (and many others) caught multitudes of Crappie (& other species) on minnows, Shad, or Silversides that were cut in half ??

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And mine don't look "exactly" like a real critter that fish would feed on, in either size, action, or color.

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No one said they should. But fish aren't that picky when it comes to details regarding what lures represent prey-wise and more to what is tickling the lateral line, drawing and holding their attention visually and actions that are out of place.

The lure designs DWILL posted are exactly what I'm talking about being the least realistic in motion and shape yet I've caught fish on all of them in my 74 yrs. Premade lures don't do it for me anymore considering the universe of lure shape, action and color combinations. Further astounding me is when fish smaller than your pinky and 10# carp get hooked on something only their senses can relate to. I'm talking about subtle lure motions as well as in-their-face visual affects only fish can appreciate in murky water.

Example 1: My thin flat tail and spike tail lures have the same subtle quiver of a minnow whether in motion or under a float. I believe fish senses recognize that action visually and via the LL. To a fish it feels and looks right even though the lures don't look like a prey animal.

Example 2: The darting action I impart on many different designs, immediately get a fish's attention and hold it because minnows that swim for their lives, don't swim in a straight line but zig zag trying to avoid jaws. Silver sided minnows demonstrate this action as well as body-flashes that predators sense - again visually and with the LL that say, "hey, I want me some of dat!!!"

Example 3. Fish senses get overloaded but not too much so to swim away when something outrageous interrupts their quiet meditation. One example is tandem # 6 silver Colorado or willow leaf blades on a spinerbait. The strobe-like flash is annoying and out-of-place and must be destroyed by the terminator-of-annoying crap! Ambushed lures are many including the Rat L Trap, Zara Spook, buzz baits, wide-lip crankbaits and large boot-tail swimbaits, leaving little time to appreciate shape and color. They are just too much for the senses to bare!

Example 4: Anything else the senses relate to live prey such as when I paint stripes on a chartreuse lure with orange slashes loosely interpreted as a yellow perch - one of the most desired meals fish can easily catch & swallow in one motion. (the bass in my pond convinced me of that Big Time!)

So, we may be apart on some reasons fish strike lures, but my reasons suggest that fish are open to suggestion when it comes to lure actions and some visual qualities nature intended for them to notice and act on.