Kentucky Lake size suggestion?

This may be a topic covered before but I have yet to find it and my passion for crappie fishing is relentless. I'm doing my best to pass it along to my 3.5 yr old daughter. That being said, in my opinion it seems like the TN and Cumberland river system's crappie could benefit from a 11" length limit.

As I sit in the middle of nowhere with the military, I have continuously watched every episode of the ACT and constantly wonder why TN/KY can't produce the size of fish that MS does. I know there are several factors to consider(asian carp, longer grow season, more food, etc) but it seems like the 12" length limit, specifically for Grenada, could be a big reason for the massive slabs.

I just spent 18 months fishing the KS/OK lakes. None of the lakes I fished are known for being top crappie lakes. Out of we'll say 30 fish, 18-24 of those would be 11" or bigger fish. It seems like that number is reversed at KY Lake, with the majority being smaller fish. Maybe KY lake slabs are more educated so they don't fall for my shenanigans. Maybe the increased slab fisherman at KY lake pull more fish from the lake. I don't know.

It seems like with the evolution of livescope, the crappie world has been changed completely. With much less skill or experience, a crappie fisherman can do fairly well with the technology nowadays. Me included. It blows my mind seeing a lake with 50 fish creel limit. Maybe I am crazy but I feel like that is a little much. I personally would rather catch fewer but larger fish. Sorta like the world of deer hunting, Fort Campbell produces monster deer by enforcing size and harvest restrictions.

Maybe their is a biologist out there that can provide some science for me. Maybe letting crappie go to 11" in KY lake would overpopulate the lake too much. I truly hope the answer isn't license sales would suffer.

My brother says nothing will change it but I don't believe that and I figure the conversation has to start somewhere.

On some lakes of over population,there are so many small crappie that none of them can grow big,
culling out the small ones can help with that.
On others, there's not enough to keep up the population or food source.
It's a very complex issue for the DNR to deal with.
And it changes from year to year.

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Originally Posted by JCCLARK

On some lakes of over population,there are so many small crappie that none of them can grow big,
culling out the small ones can help with that.
On others, there's not enough to keep up the population or food source.
It's a very c by increasing the omplex issue for the DNR to deal with.
And it changes from year to year.

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I proposed this several years ago
after fishing the Mississippi lakes. Give the crappie on Ky and Barkley another year to spawn by increasing the size limit to 11 or even 12 inches.

I couldn't agree more. It is very dynamic. I revert back to the Fort Campbell deer hunting. There for a while, it seemed like the regulations changed or were modified every year. From what I remember, it went from shoot a doe to get a buck tag, then that went away, then the antlers had to be a certain size. Regardless, the regulations changed every year because the targetted species changes every year. Conservation is on top of their game because the attractiveness of Fort Cambell deer hunting. I remember being parked next to a guy one morning that was from Florida.

Is that something that could be implemented at KY lake? Every year they modify size and creel limits. As fisherman, yes the burden will be on us to take 30 seconds every year and see if there has been a change. Conservationists may have to make a slight sticker change at each boat ramp and slight number change in the regulation magazine that comes out every year.

Cutting the creel limit to 15 from 20 and raising the size limit to 11" would be GREAT!!!!!!

Attached is a pic of my livewell master. She is all about reuniting them with their friends in the livewell. And she even eats them, but mostly because of the ketchup.

Beautiful kid, I fish the big 4 in MS a lot. And we catch a lot of big ones, Their is so many factors involved in raising super crappie, but I prefer the 10/11" fish for eating. Oh well. I think the growing season, length limit and available food is the answer.

I say leave it alone. Crappie are prolific spawners. There has been lots and lots of research conducted by fisheries biologists to place the size limits and creel limits where they are currently at.

I say let the fisheries biologists do their jobs, it's what they've spent a lifetime studying and committed their life/career to....no need to try and make fisheries biologists make decisions simply based upon an angler's baseless ideas.

Attachment 381566

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Originally Posted by JCCLARK

On some lakes of over population,there are so many small crappie that none of them can grow big,
culling out the small ones can help with that.

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Have seen that firsthand, in several farm ponds, and in Taylorsville Lake about 10 years ago.

Lots of fish to be caught, but gets old catching all those 7" and 8" sized crappie.

https://www.crappie.com/crappie/main...ns-time-2.html

The 20th comment down provides the "data" for the move to 12" inches at Grenada and 15 fish limit. Seemed like as the fishery grew more attractive, the biologist predicted the size would decrease. I would love to see this data for KY lake.

For the folks that have been fishing KY lake for many years, have you guys noticed a change in size or population? Other than the asian carp situation. Twenty years ago, were there bigger fish? Have you noticed a significant change in the amount of folks crappie fishing?

Very prolific. The question I would ask you, because I have been crappie fishing for a much shorter amount of time than you, I can almost guarantee, when were those size and creel limits established? Before sidescan? 10, 20, 30 years ago? I can tell you my crappie catching drastically increased with the introduction of sidescan. How much has the introduction of livescope changed the amount of fish caught? Yep, people slayed them long before either of those. But non-fishing folks like myself slay them now just because of electronics.

I'm gonna get my hands on the data. So maybe it won't be just baseless ideas. The move for Grenada was influenced by a survey of almost 600 folks, which most supported tighter restrictions.

https://www.crappie.com/crappie/kent...barkley-lakes/

Data found. This guy may be making it all up but he seems like he knows what he is talking about to me. Crappie.com is such a crappie encyclopedia. So amazing. Grow season is the major factor. A 12 inch KY fish is 5 years old where a 12 inch MS fish is 2 years old.

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Originally Posted by Nick51

https://www.crappie.com/crappie/kent...barkley-lakes/

Data found. This guy may be making it all up but he seems like he knows what he is talking about to me. Crappie.com is such a crappie encyclopedia. So amazing. Grow season is the major factor. A 12 inch KY fish is 5 years old where a 12 inch MS fish is 2 years old.

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Being a biology major and fishing on Barkley for near 40 years I do not think this is accurate. The change in weather patterns over the last 30 years would change this data . In my opinion.

The fish size and numbers have changed a lot in just the last few years. The Asian carp and 3 consecutive years of bad spawns due to drastic water fluctuations has really hurt the crappie population. Kentucky Lake is at the end of the Tennessee river chain and it’s levels and current are affected by what happens a lot of other places in the river system.
The Last year or two things are improving and as stated it takes longer to grow big crappie here than it does in Mississippi. A couple years ago a lot of the crappie were very thin and and a lot of it was due to bad spawns of baitfish. We’ve been seeing a lot of baitfish again so hopefully things will continue to improve.
By the way the TWRA already reduced the creel limit from 30 to 20 so the biologist are monitoring and making adjustments as they see fit.
I haven’t been able to do much fishing this year due to some family health issues but most of the fishermen I know were doing pretty good earlier this year.

More people fishing and fishing more. 30 years ago there was few if any people pulling crankbaits in late spring and summer. Also, on ky and barkley I think more folks are figuring out the black crappie. Used to you fished the stake beds and brush in the back of the coves for white crappie the second or third week of april. Now you can catch those black crappie (not necessarily on the stake beds and brush) up shallow much earlier. Electronics play a role I am sure as well.

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Originally Posted by Nick51

https://www.crappie.com/crappie/kent...barkley-lakes/

Data found. This guy may be making it all up but he seems like he knows what he is talking about to me. Crappie.com is such a crappie encyclopedia. So amazing. Grow season is the major factor. A 12 inch KY fish is 5 years old where a 12 inch MS fish is 2 years old.

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Paul Rister was a fisheries biologist for KDFWR for 28 years, serving western Kentucky as District Coordinator. He retired at the end of 2017.

This data proves what I said, let the fisheries biologists do their jobs and set the size and creel limits, they know what they are doing.

Data received from current Western KY Fisheries Biologist. Truly appreciate the phone call and email from Mr. Martin. I will do my best to summarize and post. If someone is interested in full reports, send me a message with your email and I will forward.

artcarney_agr, this discussion was started merely to see if there is anything us anglers can do, to increase the crappie experience (and because I am away from my family and the boat I spent my life savings on for the next five months). That crappie experience may differ among fishermen. Some may prefer to catch and keep fewer but have larger fish while some the opposite. Maybe there is a majority that prefers one side or the other of that. I have went down a similar path with Non-resident whitetail hunting in KS. Unfortunately the answer in that situation is about money. Policy makers override the biologist in order to maintain a certain amount of revenue instead of increasing the quality of the herd and hunting experience. That is not the case here and that is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Nick51

Policy makers override the biologist in order to maintain a certain amount of revenue instead of increasing the quality...

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That sometimes happens, and many times it's anglers or hunters with baseless perceptions trying to force policy makers to do something instead of relying on the biologists and their data.

You at least you had the notion to seek out the facts regarding the matter and now understand why I said what I said. Not everyone is like you.

Below is KY Lake data from Mr. Martin. Apologies up front, this may jump around a little bit. One of the reports actually studied the impacts of increasing the length limit and compared it to Grenada. Really great info.

RATING OF SPAWNS:
2016 - Bad
2017 - Bad
2018 - Good
2019 - Good
2020 - TBD

LENGTH OF TIME TO 10" AND 12":
10 inches in 2.8 yrs and 12 inches in 5 years but varies by species and year

FISHING EFFORT(HOURS FISHED):
1984 - 471,529
1987 - 570,163
1991 - 603,158
1998 - 172,890
2003 - 414,092
2007 - 401,714
2011 - 239,548
2015 - 276,039
2017 - 283,323

2017 SURVEY:
If you crappie fish, how many spider rig (3 or more poles) as primary method?
Yes - 23.5%
No - 39.5%
Don't crappie fish - 36.9%

Of the spider riggers, most use 4 poles at 41.4%.

Supporting a pole limit:
35.1% - support
17.5% - oppose
47.4% - no opinion
With the most, 37.4%, supporting 3 poles
* pole limit would have a minimal effect

CREEL AND LENGTH LIMIT:
Creel limit reduced from 30 to 20 in 2008 and length of 10 inches was imposed in 1991

In 2015, crappie were 37% of fish harvested at KY Lake. Compared to high profile crappie MS lakes, where crappie were 58%-86% of fish harvested.

Studies have revealed length limits succeed in producing bigger fish or higher total catch by weight if: crappie growth is fast, natural mortality is low, and percent of harvest is high.

The biggest reason for Grenada successfully implementing the 12" limit is the fast growing season.

L

If you are a meat fisherman, answer this truthfully. How many pounds of fillets do you get from 20 crappies that are 10" long vs, 15 crappies that are 12" long?

The Problem with length limit is ..
Say 10 inch if you catch a 9 1/2 In crappie and it swallows the hook..Dies..
You Release it? Or keep it?
No way to not break the law.....Hate length limit don't work!!!

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Originally Posted by jackie53

The Problem with length limit is ..
Say 10 inch if you catch a 9 1/2 In crappie and it swallows the hook..Dies..
You Release it? Or keep it?
No way to not break the law.....Hate length limit don't work!!!

Sent from my SM-J337A using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

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You release it & let Ma Nature take her course. No laws broken. There are likely a thousand times more fish that die of "natural causes/predation" than fish that die from being caught & released.

There are a Lot of differences in Ky and Miss. First Miss has more game wardens and you will be checked if you go there much. They are nice people but if your fish dissent measure over 12in. You will get a ticket. Miss also has hatcheries that can supplment the spawn, and they don't raise and drop the water levels like they do here. Ky doesn't seam to care about the tourism that fishing bring in so they don't have hatcheries to supplement the spawn and TVA controls the dams so the water level goes up or down 5 ft in a manner of hours. The fish start spawning and the water drops out killing all the eggs. Then the Asian carp are still a major problem and you can fish Ky for years and never be checked for fish size. Just My observation after fishing both states for awhile now. Love catching doubles in Miss never done that on Ky.

Great thread and great conversation. Some good data and insight. A lot of opinions, but that’s good. I like it


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Originally Posted by Northforker

If you are a meat fisherman, answer this truthfully. How many pounds of fillets do you get from 20 crappies that are 10" long vs, 15 crappies that are 12" long?

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As a meat hunter, it would be easier to get 20 crappie at 10" instead of the 15 at 12"...........as meat hunter it's no fun having to toss fish back. Plus, the sooner I can get a limit of crappie in the boat, the quicker I can start on a limit of other species like bass.

Here's a conversation with a crappie biologist where they discuss this:

Crappie Connection - Hard Core Crappie Facts with fish biologist Josh Johnston
Hard Core Crappie Facts with fish biologist Josh Johnston - YouTube

I think Taylorsville Lake is a perfect example of what raising the size limit can accomplish, notwithstanding spawn success or failure. Just about everyone I know supported the move from 9" to 10", especially after they saw the results. Now I think F&W is considering a move to 11". During a creel survey back in June, I was asked if I would support an 11" limit. My immediate answer was "YES". The surveyor said there were massive amounts of fish coming out of the lake and they were fearful that the population was being impacted. I know one thing, I do enjoy catching 12" fish and you can't get there if they don't make it to 11".

I think these discussions are great. Although, as some people have pointed out, I do agree that using data to make decisions is the best. Management of natural resources are not a one-size-fits all plan. Have you ever considered that the effect a recreational angler has on the the fishery on a body of water like Kentucky Lake with 2000 miles of shoreline and 160,000 acres of surface area (even more when flooded) is not even quantifiable (for sake of argument I'm referring only to crappies)? If you use the data of Kentucky Lake effort and split that up to hours along the shoreline or hours per acre it highlights how little pressure Kentucky Lake actually gets. I agree that the pressure ramps up several fold from March-May for crappies so you could change the math to fit different scenarios. Miranda published a study on Sardis and Grenada and showed efforts (fishing hours per person) higher on those lakes than Kentucky Lake creel surveys on average. I make the comparison to highlight the differences in these systems...it all comes down to productivity and growing season. If you take these numbers and estimate similar effort on the size lakes where you are making comparisons the avg effort in MS is an order of magnitude higher (more like 2000 hours per mile of lakeshore and hundreds of hours per acre.

There are issues with the comparison below, but the point is that there are miles and miles of Kentucky Lake that never get fished (very hard). However, the fishing in those spots that get less pressure are not some magical hidden place that are full of fish. Instead, those places have the same population demographics as most other places. Why, because recruitment is the biggest challenge on Kentucky Lake. There are millions of eggs laid and fertilized all over Kentucky Lake. Some % of them hatch. Some % of them make it from larval stage to young-of-the-year by feeding on zooplankton. Some % make it to the size where they can start eating insects and other fish. Some % make it to the size where they hopefully bite your hook and are 10". The big hurdle is the larvae to young of year. We might have skinny adult fish some years but the bottleneck is still in the same spot. The data from Kentucky lake show that if you limit to 11" or 12" fish then the actual numbers of fish available to anglers to keep goes way down (yes fewer fish at 12" size) but mostly because mortality will remove many of them prior to reaching a 12" size. There are plenty of 12" fish in the lake, lots of 14-15" too, but the data don't support the idea that if the length limit is increased to 12" that you can expect the same numbers of fish to be there because they'll all just get bigger (eventually).

				Kentucky Lake
				shoreline length (miles)	2000	surface acres	160000
1984	-	471,529			235.7645		2.947056
1987	-	570,163			285.0815		3.563519
1991	-	603,158			301.579		3.769738
1998	-	172,890			86.445		1.080563
2003	-	414,092			207.046		2.588075
2007	-	401,714			200.857		2.510713
2011	-	239,548			119.774		1.497175
2015	-	276,039			138.0195		1.725244
2017	-	283,323			141.6615		1.770769
				Average hours effort/mile shoreline	190.692	Avg/acre	2.38365

90% of the fish are in 10% of the water. Lots of unsuitable habitat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by h20bugz

I think these discussions are great. Although, as some people have pointed out, I do agree that using data to make decisions is the best. Management of natural resources are not a one-size-fits all plan. Have you ever considered that the effect a recreational angler has on the the fishery on a body of water like Kentucky Lake with 2000 miles of shoreline and 160,000 acres of surface area (even more when flooded) is not even quantifiable (for sake of argument I'm referring only to crappies)? If you use the data of Kentucky Lake effort and split that up to hours along the shoreline or hours per acre it highlights how little pressure Kentucky Lake actually gets. I agree that the pressure ramps up several fold from March-May for crappies so you could change the math to fit different scenarios. Miranda published a study on Sardis and Grenada and showed efforts (fishing hours per person) higher on those lakes than Kentucky Lake creel surveys on average. I make the comparison to highlight the differences in these systems...it all comes down to productivity and growing season. If you take these numbers and estimate similar effort on the size lakes where you are making comparisons the avg effort in MS is an order of magnitude higher (more like 2000 hours per mile of lakeshore and hundreds of hours per acre.

There are issues with the comparison below, but the point is that there are miles and miles of Kentucky Lake that never get fished (very hard). However, the fishing in those spots that get less pressure are not some magical hidden place that are full of fish. Instead, those places have the same population demographics as most other places. Why, because recruitment is the biggest challenge on Kentucky Lake. There are millions of eggs laid and fertilized all over Kentucky Lake. Some % of them hatch. Some % of them make it from larval stage to young-of-the-year by feeding on zooplankton. Some % make it to the size where they can start eating insects and other fish. Some % make it to the size where they hopefully bite your hook and are 10". The big hurdle is the larvae to young of year. We might have skinny adult fish some years but the bottleneck is still in the same spot. The data from Kentucky lake show that if you limit to 11" or 12" fish then the actual numbers of fish available to anglers to keep goes way down (yes fewer fish at 12" size) but mostly because mortality will remove many of them prior to reaching a 12" size. There are plenty of 12" fish in the lake, lots of 14-15" too, but the data don't support the idea that if the length limit is increased to 12" that you can expect the same numbers of fish to be there because they'll all just get bigger (eventually).

				Kentucky Lake
				shoreline length (miles)	2000	surface acres	160000
1984	-	471,529			235.7645		2.947056
1987	-	570,163			285.0815		3.563519
1991	-	603,158			301.579		3.769738
1998	-	172,890			86.445		1.080563
2003	-	414,092			207.046		2.588075
2007	-	401,714			200.857		2.510713
2011	-	239,548			119.774		1.497175
2015	-	276,039			138.0195		1.725244
2017	-	283,323			141.6615		1.770769
				Average hours effort/mile shoreline	190.692	Avg/acre	2.38365

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Tn bioliogist laugh when you ask about changing to a creel size over 10in.They say our fish grow slower than miss fish.They say a miss fish will be 12in in the same time the yn fish will be 10in.They say if theres a couple bad spawns in a row fishing would really be terrible numbers wise with a longer length creel.

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