Guide numbers and so on.

In another post here, y’all talk of guide size and placement. Last trip out I had a revelation of sorts about this subject and came up with a few questions that I couldn’t figure out on my own. I have two favorite rods, both with a President 6920 and 2lb Nanofil line and a short 4lb mono leader.
Rod one is a Wally Marshall signature series black tuxedo , a 6’ one piece rod with 8 guides, the stripper is about nickel size. Like the action albeit a little stiffer than what I was looking for when I bought it.
Rod two is a Berkeley lightning rod in 5’6” and it’s a 2 piece rod with 4 guides and a very nice action that I have come to love. Wasn’t all on board about it being two pieces when I bought it but those thoughts have long since fallen away.
Same everything on the rod, reel, line and jig so all things equal. The Lightning Rod will outcast the Wally Marshall rod by a noticeable difference. This usually results in the Wally getting put down and the Lightning spending more time in my hand.
My question is; with most variables equal, what could be causing the cast to be so different and how do I go about fixing it. I’m not against buying new guides and redoing the rod if it will perform when done. I’m also not against selling the Wally and getting another Lightning. Most of my presentation lately is shooting under trees and brush, a line drive cast, if you will. Just looking for input and thanks for taking the time to read this......Tim.

I'm not to sure Skeet, but could be line slap on the rod as the line coils off the reel before the first guide slowing it down. I will be honest, I haven't held either rod...

I measured the stripper guide on both and the one that casts well, the lightning rod, measures 3/4” while the other has more runner guides and the stripper is 1/2”. The rod is medium light and very light in the hand but just doesn’t cast very well. Thanks for the input.

Skeet, I will say I'm no expert, just commenting from my experience and what I pick up here and there...best of luck, hope you get it worked out...

Casting distance comes from the rod properly loading up the bait. If the bait is to light the rod will not load up or if the bait is to heavy the rod will over load and whip around on the forward cast, both will cause a decrease in casting distance. The number of guides really doesn't have anything to do with it, the more guides just mean more points of contact on the blank for sensitivity. I use 9 or 10 plus a tip on rods 6 to 7 foot but the style of guides can make a huge difference. That is my best guess If the reel line and jig are the same.

Makes sense Brent. I have that rod in both 5’6” and 6’, and the small stripper guides puzzled me when I bought it. I have to try it with regular sized 1/32 and see if it’s any better. Going with Wicklunders recommendations about height of the guides, these don’t make anything close to a reasonably straight line from the reel to the tip, pretty sharp angle from the reel to the stripper. Guess the easiest way to get it to behave is to buy another like the one that works sweet. Good thing they aren’t too expensive. Thanks for the input folks.

Skeet, on the rod that doesn't cast well, how far is the stripper guide from the reel compared to the other rod? Also, how high off the rod does the first guide stand compared to the other one? I'm thinking line deflection or angle if you get what I'm saying? Grasping at differences without seeing the two rods.

I would check the spline to guide alignment. Hard to believe a manufacturer would place the guides misaligned to the spline but things happen.
Easy enough to check though. Remove reel and line. Place the handle on the floor hold the tip and apply slight pressure to center of rod. The guides should follow the natural bend of the rod. Course they are on opposite sides for spinning vs casting but that's an easy test.
Mudhole tackle has a video on their website walking you through this and proper guide placement.

I’m sure someone has figured out the placement on the new style of super low frame stripper guides but if it’s off they ldon’t cast well because of what wick was saying about the sharp angle off the reel to the runners. I tried to build a rod with them after seeing a production rod that has them on it. I even called to guide manufacturer to work out a guide placement. That rod didn’t cast well and the guides caused so many wind knots I strait up trashed the rod. Take the same blank with any other guide and it works beautifully.

I had the exact same issue as GB did.

I will say this, picking the guys brains that build a lot of rods is by far the best way to go. If I was a hobby builder that built one here or there, I could see where you would have some frustration after building a rod and then having it not perform as you want or think it should. Like GB, I have built a few rods with different platforms on it and it is amazing to see how some things can completely transform a turd into a treasure or vice versa.

A big frustration that even I deal with is the complete difference between rod manufacturers and even materal makup in relation to the advertised rod action. One companys UL Fast rod will have an action comparable to another companies Light weight moderate action rod. I guess that is why so many of us find a particular brand or company that we get used to and we stick with it because we can accurate predict what the rod blank will react like or feel. You have to have that sort of knowledge when building rods for people.

I build (or used to build) a ton of jigging rods. Very specific rods intended to jig 5/8oz to more than 1oz jigs in fast current for walleyes. Knowing what the person intends to get out of the rod or what they are looking for was a great beneifit. I could accurately gauge which rod blank (even down to the company) would work best for them. If they were NEVER going to cast this rod, I would build it a ton different than if they were. Same held true for what type of line they wanted to utilize. Again, many guys assume that they need to use X because that is what they found works best on the current version of rod they have. Then they are amazed when you build them a custom intent rod.

I own tons of rods, some of them are store purchased and some are custom built. The store purchased ones that I contue to use, I simply have yet to find a blank that reacts like that one. Not to say it isn't made, just that I have yet to find it!

I'm currently working on a real gem right now. A rod blank composit that has not been made in years. I was able to get the company to reproduce it in order to closely match the makeup of one of their rods from more than 30 years ago. It got sent back in 2016 on a warranty mission only to find that they just couldn't make it anymore. Instead of warrantying that rod, they decided to produce a whole new blank for me. Slightly better than the original but still utilizing the same components. I'll show it off when it is complete. If you are not familiar with a SAGE rod, take a look. Feel free to choke when looking at the prices. Then you will realize the reason I called it a real GEM!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wicklundrh

I'm currently working on a real gem right now. A rod blank composit that has not been made in years. I was able to get the company to reproduce it in order to closely match the makeup of one of their rods from more than 30 years ago. It got sent back in 2016 on a warranty mission only to find that they just couldn't make it anymore. Instead of warrantying that rod, they decided to produce a whole new blank for me. Slightly better than the original but still utilizing the same components. I'll show it off when it is complete. If you are not familiar with a SAGE rod, take a look. Feel free to choke when looking at the prices. Then you will realize the reason I called it a real GEM!

---

Sage discontinued their steelhead casting & spinning rods. They were some of the best rods I've ever fished, they rivaled the Loomis steelhead rods. I regret not buying a few blanks when they were still available. That's great Sage created a new blank from a discontinued line. I hope to see your rod when it's finished.

Wick, I noticed a sharp angle from the reel at the outside of its rotation to the stripper on the Wally rod. Makes me feel like the eye of the guide isn’t tall enough to get in line with the reel. I haven’t noticed any whipping sound when I cast so I’m not inclined to think I’m suffering line slap. I haven’t measured the guide placement so I can’t answer that yet.

Ray, I haven’t found a production rod that followed the spine yet, but I’m always interested in seeing something new. I’ve owned a couple that were way off. Come to think of it, I’m going to go and check to see just what I have.

Just checked and the spine on the 6’ Wally rod is off at least 90*. The stripper guide on the lightning rod is at 21” and the stripper if 3/4”. The Wally its at 18” and the guide is 1/2”, dime size. The action is stated as medium lite but really appeals to me. Thought went thru my mind to take everything off of it and start over.

Skeet, I think that is your best bet. I got a call from a guy I am mentoring yesterday. I told him to take the eyes off his rod and do it the way he thinks it will work best. Your not out much in terms of price, you get to learn how to strip old rods, and you get to learn what possibly works and doesn't.

Sage has been the best company I have worked with hands down. I do wish they would come back with their 2 piece 10 and 12ft blanks but, I also understand that their market is fly rods these days and they do a heck of a job at it.

Wick, I’m leaning towards that idea. The handles aren’t even real cork, just a foam core with a cork veneer. That disappointed me too.

Oh the tricks to cut corners and save some money I’ve seen this on a number of brands.

Go to rodbuilding. Org. Click on history. Click on New Concept guides for spinning rods. This is the best technique going. I have built a couple 100 rods and this is the way to go. By the way spline on a blank is not always the way to set your guide orientation. Attachment 372777

Sent from my SM-G960U using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

Ive built 1000s of rods so why do you say that its not always the best way? On some blanks I personally don't think it really matters but I still always build them on one side of the spline, based on what I want out of the blank. Just curious what your thoughts are, not calling you out or anything. Always love hearing another rod builders thoughts on the craft.

I stopped building on the spline and went to using the straight axis long ago. I only build for myself and friends. My spline finder hasn't been out of its drawer in 15 years. I build freshwater spin and casting rods only. The following pics tells what I believe. Attachment 372830Attachment 372831Attachment 372832

Sent from my SM-G960U using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

in building several hundred rods, most are 9' blanks, I am convinced the size of the reel arbor (where line is stored) and the distance between the reel and the first guide are major factors in casting distance. I prefer the older abu garcia 500 series reels and placement of the first guide at 19 inches from reel face. Average casting distance is 20/30 feet longer. Also weight of jig makes a difference. JUST SAYING!!!