Hey Adam....

What are your thoughts on the current health of our beloved crappie? Seems it's been a pretty rough fall, and winter from what I am seeing.
Reason I'm asking is due to a recent trip to Lake D'arbonne in Louisiana, and the fishery was fantastic. The health and size of those fish reminded me on the Pre-Asian Carp days of years ago on our lakes. They are very fortunate to not have these fish in their lake.
I know you guys and gals are working on this problem but there is a very concerning correlation between the two that as a fisherman would like to know where the bottom is going to be and when we will see a slow climb upward again in overall fish health, weight and size.

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They are trying something... West Kentucky Star - News

Count me as worried, too. At this late stage of the game, we are totally dependant on the state to come up with a workable solution.

It would be wonderful if the price per pound of these things would lure some big time commercial folks to hammer their numbers back!!

Also, just how different is the fishing now compared to 5-10 years ago? Have the crappie really dinked out??

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Originally Posted by BIGBADDAD

They are trying something... West Kentucky Star - News

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Another reason why I am asking. Saw that article this morning also.

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The quality of the fish that I have seen over the last two years has been disappointing. I remember 30 years ago my dad used to fish a lot from Birdsong to Cuba Landing in Tennessee. They had contests to see who could catch the biggest crappie. I remember that you had to have over 2 lbs to win that contests. I can’t remember the last time I caught a 1.5 lb fish off of ky lake. The fish never seem to grow.


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Originally Posted by BIGBADDAD

They are trying something... West Kentucky Star - News

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Too LATE!

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Originally Posted by BIGBADDAD

They are trying something... West Kentucky Star - News

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Even if it works its too late. They are already all the way to Old Hickory on the Cumberland and at least as far up as Guntersville lock on the TN.

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Originally Posted by Wiskers

Even if it works its too late. They are already all the way to Old Hickory on the Cumberland and at least as far up as Guntersville lock on the TN.

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Here's a chart that will make you cringe :

https://fishbio.com/wp-content/uploads/problem9.jpeg

And if I'm not mistaken .... according to the light green patches, the invasion of the Tenn River has made it all the way to Watts Bar Lake, in E. Tenn. And it also appears that they are actually spawning in KY/ Barkley lakes, according to the pink shaded areas. And this map is dated APRIL 2013 !!!
Now there is some conflicting info from more recent articles, but most of the ones I read seem to be aimed more towards the Great Lakes .... and our "great" lakes are background noise in the main theme of those articles.

I wonder how they got down in Florida?


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That map shows that they are in Lake Erie. I hadn't realized they had populated any of the Great Lakes at this point.

I still can't believe they were allowed to be brought into this country in the first place. I think I read once where our "experts" didn't think they could survive in our local rivers even if they did escape so didn't worry about it being a serious risk. Almost seems criminal what was allowed to happen, unintended or not.

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Originally Posted by Nutbush

I wonder how they got down in Florida?


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Wondered that, myself. Shaded area looks to be the Everglades region. They have used sterilized Grass Carp to keep the Hydrilla in check in their canal systems ... so it may be that they're lumping them in with the Bighead & Silver, or it could be that some were misidentified at the source and accidentally introduced. :dono

Bad News, Sorry tell you guys but its too late. They are already there and there is no way to eliminate them besides wiping out every fish and starting from scratch. If you think any barrier (bubble fence, Sound barrier etc..)will work then you are mistaken, if you are counting on the State of Feds to save you then you are crazy.
I am a Mississippi, Illinois, and Kaskaskia river fisherman here up north of you guys and they've been here for 15 years, they came quick. if you think its bad now then wait a year or two. Every Crappie fishery I fish has suffered some. it will not get better. The only positive is that the Catfish love them and they make great cut bait. I wish I had better news for KY anglers but boys it only gonna get worse.
The feds are only worried about saving the great lakes. they could care less about the rivers and impoundments. The fish have been on the loose since the flood of 1993 and they haven't been able to stop them since. Its time to be realistic. There Is a reason why all the big crappie up here are caught in lakes not connected to said rivers.

It is a shame. We have the Wabash River that runs through up here. Can't even take the kids out on it for fear they are going to get knocked out of the boat.

They've been here for over 20 years now as well. You can see acres and acres of them on the surface feeding in KY and Barkley in late summer. When the current gets high they pack like sardines into every bay.

The fish I'm catching this year look like August crankbait fish, not March prespawn fish.

There are still good fish in ky/Barkley lakes. The carp have made the crappie change locations. Plenty of fish over 2lbs. The study western ky fisheries did indicated that the population is about the same that it has been. Whenever we go we always catch good healthy blacks and whites.

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[QUOTE]Plenty of fish over 2lbs[/QUOTE]

This may be a slight exaggeration. LOL

[QUOTE=kylakelover;3597350]

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Plenty of fish over 2lbs [/QUOTE]

This may be a slight exaggeration. LOL

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Might be a difference in what "plenty" means, too !! :biggrin

Was there in April and caught 4 that were over 2. Been going to ky lake for last 4 years and catch em at 2 or over 2.

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Originally Posted by Monark King190

Was there in April and caught 4 that were over 2. Been going to ky lake for last 4 years and catch em at 2 or over 2.

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I live 40 minutes from Ky and Barkley Lakes, and fished 87 days last year. You fished during one of three different spawn times last spring that our biologist can verify. I'm not a guide, not a professional fisherman, but chase them year round in multiple states throughout the year.
From a statistical standpoint, you don't have enough data samples, and time on these waters to give a consistent analysis of the current conditions and situation that these waters are under.
Not trying to insult you sir, but 1 trip per year during the spawn doesn't really mount up to much.


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Show me your data to back up any of your statements. AS I thought, you do not have any real data to back up your mouth just your personal unsupported beliefs. If you honestly do not believe that State and Federal fishery resource professionals are the best informed and dedicated organizations to address the invasive Asian carp issue, who do you honestly think will? Do you have any data comparing Asian carp reproductive success between river and reservoir systems, average life spans and annual mobility? I'm waiting to see any data you may have to back up your accusations. In the mean time I suggest everybody needs to double down on our support for the fishery resource professionals who are working daily to address invasive Asian carp and other aquatic resource issues.

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Originally Posted by bandchaser

I live 40 minutes from Ky and Barkley Lakes, and fished 87 days last year. You fished during one of three different spawn times last spring that our biologist can verify. I'm not a guide, not a professional fisherman, but chase them year round in multiple states throughout the year.
From a statistical standpoint, you don't have enough data samples, and time on these waters to give a consistent analysis of the current conditions and situation that these waters are under.
Not trying to insult you sir, but 1 trip per year during the spawn doesn't really mount up to much.


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With all due respect weren't you doing something similar in your opening post that you accuse him of doing when drawing conclusions of the fish in our lakes because of your success on a trip to Louisiana?

That said I tend to agree with you and the premise that these invasive species have to be having some negative impact on the local ecosystem and the native fish. I simply can't believe that millions of large plankton eating fish couldn't. I guess the question is the extent of that and how it impacts the future. One thing I hope is that just the shear size of Kentucky and Barkley will allow them to coexist where in comparison it appears that in some smaller waters that they are in it seems they smother out most everything else.

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Originally Posted by Slow Retrieve

With all due respect weren't you doing something similar in your opening post that you accuse him of doing when drawing conclusions of the fish in our lakes because of your success on a trip to Louisiana?

That said I tend to agree with you and the premise that these invasive species have to be having some negative impact on the local ecosystem and the native fish. I simply can't believe that millions of large plankton eating fish couldn't. I guess the question is the extent of that and how it impacts the future. One thing I hope is that just the shear size of Kentucky and Barkley will allow them to coexist where in comparison it appears that in some smaller waters that they are in it seems they smother out most everything else.

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Yep, sure did I suppose. But you forgot that I did mention that Lake D'arbonne is without Asian Carp. I also was not stating conflicting information. If you really look into some of the recent years tournament weights, records being broken, and reports of some serious slabs coming from Lake D'arbonne.
If you speak to the commercial catfish fisherman, they have been complaining for a few years about the massive decline in bait fish and gizzard shad.



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Originally Posted by bandchaser

Yep, sure did I suppose. But you forgot that I did mention that Lake D'arbonne is without Asian Carp. I also was not stating conflicting information. If you really look into some of the recent years tournament weights, records being broken, and reports of some serious slabs coming from Lake D'arbonne.
If you speak to the commercial catfish fisherman, they have been complaining for a few years about the massive decline in bait fish and gizzard shad.



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Yeah I don't disagree at all, and again no offense intended.

My only saving grace is since I so often struggle when fishing for crappie that I won't see the drop off that so many others do :)

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner

Show me your data to back up any of your statements. AS I thought, you do not have any real data to back up your mouth just your personal unsupported beliefs. If you honestly do not believe that State and Federal fishery resource professionals are the best informed and dedicated organizations to address the invasive Asian carp issue, who do you honestly think will? Do you have any data comparing Asian carp reproductive success between river and reservoir systems, average life spans and annual mobility? I'm waiting to see any data you may have to back up your accusations. In the mean time I suggest everybody needs to double down on our support for the fishery resource professionals who are working daily to address invasive Asian carp and other aquatic resource issues.

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Who are you referring to? You want some data, I've got the same data as the fisheries have, discussions that I have had with Paul and Adam, and my involvement to attend the Asian Carp meetings the past few years.
It appears that you yourself are ill-informed. I support our state people in this fight. But once again, this dilemma began with this invasive species being allowed over here in a commercial application. Then in the 1993 flood, these fish escaped from their catfish ponds via backwaters from the Mississippi River. Now, our very own Federal government and Federal Fish & Game acknowledged these events and said that not to worry, this species can not handle the cold winter months and the Mississippi River. Nature will take care it......

Yep, they were right, again. And they are not holding anyone accountable, or what was exactly stated to me last summer by the Federal Fish & Game at a meeting was they didn't know how to hold anyone accountable and it's too long ago to even begin. And they still will not hold themselves accountable by giving anything and everything in financial support to the State agencies to fight this on their behalf's.
https://www.nps.gov/miss/learn/nature/ascarpover.htm
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/grea...e=2&HUCNumber=
https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/204767
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.kentu...e44395302.html
https://fw.ky.gov/Fish/Pages/Asian-C...formation.aspx

Also, there are several threads on this KY page that you can research on your own. The data is out there for anyone to research, and there is alot of it too.

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So many variables can effect a water system as large as the twin lakes, carp has an effect I’m sure. But many other factors play a role as well. Just like weather cycles work, fish quality follows in such a matter. I would compare the ups and down of reelfoot as a good reference. Just my opinion.

Honestly it doesn't take a rocket scientist, just someone with a fish finder that has fished these lakes their entire lives to tell you that the baitfish population has taken a massive hit from something and it's not the weather. Introduce something that is essentially a super predator at the base of the food chain that reproduces at a staggering rate and there is no way that they are not having an impact.

Hey guys, To address the first question: crappie condition (relative weight) probably hasn’t changed much since the fall when we checked the weights. The relative weights were below normal for ky lake and below normal for an “average” crappie. There have of course been prior years with worse relative weights (primarily in precarp years)
Relative weight is essentially controlled by two factors 1. The density of crappie 2. The availability of prey items (shad, bluegill, drum, silversides, logperch, etc.).

Those two controlling factors haven’t really changed yet because none of our prey species have spawned yet this year (With the exception of chain pickerel, which isn’t a huge factor). There is also a lot of variation between lakes and embayments based on the different densities of certain year classes of crappie.

We only quantitatively measure fish condition (relative weight) in the fall so that is when we will have new hard numbers again. Fish can be weighed in the spring, but egg weights throw off the calculations.

Bass relative weights were also down last year.

Is this being caused by Asian carp? They are probably a factor due to their direct competition with gizzard shad. However, relative weights have historically fluctuated a lot in these lakes so I am hopeful that they will rebound. (They were normal in 2016) For the time being, I wouldn’t expect any improvement until we get some reproduction of our crappies prey sources.

I’ll check this thread more often so if anyone has more questions I’ll be happy to answer. As always, thanks for sharing your concerns

I agree the Asian Carp are more than likely effecting the eco system for native species such as Crappie. I also believe this is a two fold problem, Asian Carp and the man made problem of over fishing. I know many don't want to hear this, but fishing has changed over the years, mainly with the high tech electronics. The novice fisherman can go out with the basic gps and depth finder and locate fish on structure and catch numerous fish. I know guys who go out nearly seven days a week, catch maximum fish under current creel limits. Some bragging of catching 300 to 400 per season. I don't think the lakes can sustain this type of pressure along with the added factor of the Asian Carp problem. I often wonder how well we do enforcement of creel limits, been on this lake since 1994, stopped one time for a catch check. I know we have limited time and resources and we cant catch everything. I hope one day we do not get to the point of other species, mainly salt water in some states and federal waters, where they limit the season, (meaning no season during the peak spawn) and reduce the creel limits to where it may not be feasible to make a trip to these great natural resources and fish. Time will tell?

Many of us on here will be seeing their effects for the rest of our lives. I just hope the states get their priorities straight and start an all out war to drastically reduce the numbers.
They are effecting the size of crappie on Kentucky Lake, some areas more than others.
Big Sandy area, big effect, over on main Tennessee river channel (Danville), not as bad.
i think it a matter of time before a pleasure boater gets hurt bad by their jumping. My youngest wake boards and water skis, he never goes out without seeing them jump.

I'd really like to know whether a 12" min size limit on Crappies would, negatively affect the fishery and if so, how? Lots of stretched 10" fish being filleted.

Generally speaking a reg isn’t good or bad, but each reg is a compromise between different desired outcomes. As for the 20 fish limit, it helps limit the harvest in some years, but in most years the average angler is catching well below their limit so the effect is minimal. Crappie are kind of unique because you don’t actually need many adults to have a good spawn. The right environmental conditions and flows are much more important, (assuming you have at least a decent number of spawning adults).

So would reducing harvest improve the condition of crappie in the lake? No, it would likely have the opposite effect by increasing intraspecific competition. I’m sure there are a few pond owners on here with a million 7 inch crappie.

It’s also important not to confuse condition (relative weight), with growth. The growth rates were only down ever so slightly for age 2 fish (these are all the 9’s you were catching in Jonathan creek). The abundance of age 2 fish was definitely a factor in the reduced growth, (possibly exacerbated by Asian carp effects on shad). For the most part growth rates have been very steady throughout time.

As for the effects of a 12 in limit. Would this hurt the fishery? It depends on what kind of compromise you want to make. If you only care about catching large (trophy) size fish then a 12” limit might help. However, the compromise is that you will lose a lot of fish due to natural mortality before they reach 12”. Using computer models, the number of fish caught with a 12” size limit would be about 44% less than what you’re catching with the 10” limit. (It takes an average of 2 more years for our crappie to reach 12”). Additionally, the total weight harvested would decrease (fewer pounds of filets for everyone). Interestingly an 11” size limit has about the same total weight harvested as the 10”, but the harvest numbers drop by 22%. As it stands ky and Barkley are very harvest oriented crappie fisheries, so a 10” allows the highest yield, while still allowing a high harvest rate.

Does that make sense?

Amartinbio, thanks for jumping in the discussion.
im guessing your data is Kentucky based, and if correct, could the growth rates be lower ( or higher) the farther you go upstream, which is south, not Tennessee on Kentucky Lake?
unless it's different, this will be the 3rd year that 70% or more of what I catch is less than 10". I do not include spring spawn. This is if I fish entirely on Big Sandy portion of Kentucky Lake. I can fish east, on main Tennessee river channel, which is more river like, less lake, and my numbers are more like 50/50.
I think the areas where the carp are concentrated are a big factor in our crappie size, and bass. The bait fish numbers are reduced, there is less food for our crappie and bass, carp is the reason, in some areas.
At the spawn rates, and growth rates, isn't it a matter of time before the carp are concentrated all over Kentucky Lake?

Forgot to say, your explanation of changes from 10 to 12 makes perfect sense to me. I'm not concerned with catching a limit, I usually fish 2 to 4 hours, 50 or so days a year. I'm not after a limit, I want fish for dinner tonight, and if most everything I catch I must throw back, then dinner may not be fish!

Growth rates can be different in different areas, although not to a large degree. Kdfwr did a tracking study in 2003 that showed that crappie mainly stay in the same area (bay) throughout the year. Spawning success and timing also varies by location. Both of those things together mean that “subpopulations” of crappie probably exist in ky lake. (A large scale genetic study or passive integrated transponder mark-recap study would say for sure, but would be really expensive)

In a typical healthy population, you will see more young fish than old fish. Hence, more short fish than keepers.
As an angler you’re measuring fish and seeing a major part of the picture, but without knowing the age of the fish it’s impossible to say whether you’ve caught a slow growing 5 year old, or a quick growing 1 year old.

Lane47,

"I usually fish 2 to 4 hours, 50 or so days a year. I'm not after a limit, I want fish for dinner tonight, and if most everything I catch I must throw back, then dinner may not be fish!" I wish there were more people like you and not those who are obsessed with out doing the other guy or bragging about catching 400 to 500 per year. Regardless if we have problems with Asian Carp or other natural negative effects on the population, we need to be good stewards of our waters, eat what you take and take what you eat.

I think a lot of concerns are regarding the lack of shoulders on some of these fish. We caught a mess of crappie tonight over here on Barkley that were legal fish, but they were lacking in thickness.

I could be heard swearing out loud that the Asian Carp are ruining this fishery.

That's what I'm seeing. The fish I'm catching just look poor. Not the linebacker type that I'm used to catching this time of year.

FYI Kdfwr is holding a public meeting on April 5th at Kentucky dam village. 7-9 pm. Updates on carp efforts as well as the status of ky and Barkley sportfish will be discussed. As always, asking questions or voicing concerns is highly encouraged. Fisheries management is a team sport and you’re all on the team.

Crappie weights will be discussed for sure.
Are you guys seeing the same lean fish on Barkley right now? Our fall numbers showed better relative weights on Barkley.

It's weird, last night we caught a small mess that seemed kind of lean but this morning I caught a few that were nice and thick. I'm over here on North Barkley around Kuttawa.