http://www.crappie.com/crappie/main-...-care-explain/
I fish below Smithland dam quite a bit, there used to be shad for days, the water would be black with them running along side the lock wall or the short wing wall. That is far from the case now, the cat fishermen always ask if I’ve seen any shad. Their is not enough shad for them guys to have bait. The Sauger and the stripes have really slowed down the last five years or so. I’ve noticed the rockfish are thin and poor looking now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdux
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It was a day in October had to be nearly ten years ago now...I made a trip to fish below Kentucky dam. Every time I threw my cast net all I caught was juvenile asian carp. So I just used them...screen was full of fish...did not get a bite.
I tell you just made me sick...literally.
And that had to be ten years or more ago now.
Problem too big now ...it will just have to play itself out.
Read a little about invasive species in Australia...I think the German carp decimated their waters.
Protect your borders...or pay the consequences
I am assuming all this near bottom is shad. Do you think it is asian carp fingerlings?
Attachment 278258
Probably small Asians. Those are individual fish and too large for shad. Shad show up as a big glob or "baitballs". Rickie and I side-scanned a lot yesterday and those type signals showed a shadow. I've seen yellows that thick but they would be wearing your arms out pulling them in. More than likely silvers like the one I caught. Sad situation.
All the huff-n-puff about helping out the commercial netters and such just seems to be a way to take the heat off and shut us up. Sorry! Ain't happening. When the motels and campgrounds are empty from folks who used to fish these lakes, something might get done.
"When the motels and campgrounds are empty from folks who used to fish these lakes, something might get done." quote from mrdux
I wish, but they'll just say they don't have any money to throw at it because revenue is down because there's no out of staters buying licenses
You may have heard about the recent Asian carp sampling conducted in cooperation with usfw on the lakes last week. We will be discussing what they found when we come to the shindig, but the basic summary is that there are a lot of silver carp in the 600-700 mm (~24") size range. They did collect a couple below that size, but literally only a couple. A size of 600-700 means they were spawned in 2015 when we saw the huge spawn in the tailwaters and potentially the lake. There are also some silvers larger than that size although their numbers are lower. These ky lake silvers grow faster than any other documented population of silver carp. These fish are competing with our native shad. The degree of competition actually depends on the sizes of shad and silvers as they have very slightly different feeding preferences. They are undoubtedly having some effect on our shad populations. We do no collect any meaningful assessment of the numbers of shad in the lakes. It is all but impossible to collect an accurate assessment of that in lakes this size. We still observe plenty during our other sampling, but we don't quantify the shad numbers in the lake. We instead primarily focus on relative weight information (how much a fish weighs for its length). This gives us an estimate of how much food was available for a given species. Sport fish relative weights have remained within historical norms. We hope they will stay that way, but will obviously keep monitoring the situation.
As we've stated before, we are trying everything possible to bolster commercial fishing for these fish. These fish are a problem and we are committed to fixing this problem. I have got to push back against the idea that we are just waiting around and hoping the problem will go away or that somehow if we lost local license sales we would finally do something. Our job is to provide the best fishing opportunities possible to the people of ky and we take that very seriously. No state is taking this problem more seriously and we are constantly increasing our efforts to fix this problem. All that being said, I'm glad anglers like you are so involved in the health of the fishery and I really do appreciate your concerns.
We now have another invasive filter feeder in the lake (zebra mussels) so this could potentially have some effects on water clarity and hence vegetation growth. These effects remain to be seen.
Thanks for stopping in and sharing information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartinbio
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I got my Kentucky Afield magazine today and in it there is an article by Paul Rister about the re-establishment of the Zebra Mussels in Kentucky Lake. They are also Plankton Filter Feeders so they will be adding to the mess we have now. Perhaps the Zebra Mussels will starve out the Asian Carp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartinbio
Not likely, unfortunately :bangheadQuote:
Originally Posted by Clint
Zebra Mussels have been in Taylorsville for years, and the Shad population hasn't shown any decline for it. And the lake isn't all that big, either, and the Zebra Mussels propagate faster than their predators can control them, so you'd think it would be "clear water" clean most of the time ... and it isn't. It's also noteworthy to mention that the watershed of that area drains farm & dairy lands, plus there's a lot of limestone in the area the waters flow over/through ... all of which adds phosphorus to the waters of the lake, keeping it relatively fertile.
I was on here back a couple months ago and discussing the need to raise the size limit for crappie on these lakes, Paul Rister commented back basically laughing about my concerns. I fished in the Crappie USA Tournament this past weekend and out of 183 of the best fishermen in the world, only 2 fish where weighed over 2 pounds. I heard numerous people talking about how the size need to be raised but our officials are not going to do it. As far as the asian carp are concerned we have already lost these lakes and just dont know it yet. When it comes to the states way of dealing with these carp and the need to keep a 10 inch size limit i am not drinking the kool- aid like some on this site!
Yep and in 2013 Classic there were only 3 fish over 2lbs weighed. And in the 2015 Crappie Usa Super over 20 fish over 2lbs weighed with some of the biggest stringers ever recorded since Cusa went to seven fish bags. When exactly was the fishing good before? I have looked at alot of tournament results and still don't see a negative trend here on Ky/Barkley, just cycles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slab Slayer
I am concerned about the carp and honsetly really not optimistic about a viable solution long term but the sky hasn't fallen yet.
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I agree with you Pab that the sky hasnt fallen yet, but got to tell you its bad!! I would welcome anyone that knows how to read a lowrance HDS side scan to go into any bay on this lake now and try to find a place where there not at. Ive been hearing for 5 years about things that the state was doing to control them, so 5 years later they are worse than ever and obviously with no solution from the state except talk, id pretty much think they have taken over and only going to get worse, and the way things are looking its going to be sooner than later. Its really sad!!
I too fished the USA event this past weekend and noticed the dramatic decrease in fish Heath. The crappie in areas looked like they hadn’t ate in years. We had a 14.75” Crappie that weighed 1.03lbs and another almost identical. Like said earlier any bay is completely covered with the silvers. Every local I talked to at the ramp and weigh in had similar thoughts and concerns. Sad to see this happening to such a once great fishery
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If y'all really feel the fish are already starving, which I don't agree with either, what is the logic behind raising the size limit to increase competition for the food that is available?
As far as a couple skinny fish on a tough weekend, it is what it is. It doesn't track with what I have been seeing the last few months, fish have been very thick for the most part and stuffed full of shad. I guess I need to get a decent scale and start posting weights.
Again I encourage anyone interested to look at the results and write up from the 2013 Classic, somewhat similar weather conditions and if you remember what was going with the lakes, similar fish cycles. Similar but not exactly the same,weights are down a little but oddly enough some of the same folks at the top. I still don't think fishing or fishing tournaments alone are the basis for sound fisheries management.
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I wouldn't worry about anything changing.
One look at the finances for any one of the states around here will tell you all you need to know.
It will have to play out naturally.
Besides....as long as that lock is at the dam...so goes the connecting river systems...so goes Kentucky Lake to one degree or another.
The lock just slows down the process
I am sure there are probably just as many sport fish of equal size as ever in history..old people tend to embellish their stories or just don't remember it accurately.
I do wish those lamprey would disappear...the first time I pulled up a beautiful 15" crappie and one of those nasty looking things dropped
off just as I was lifting it from the water and the fish had nasty wounds.....I got to admit...that bothered me..maybe the're gone already...haven't been there in a long time.
Attachment 278527Attachment 278527
I catch at least one fish a year with one of them things on there.Attachment 278528
I would rather see them on a bass than a crappie tho. Lol
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During our crappie sampling this week and last we have also noticed that some of the largest white crappie were in poor condition (skinny). The large blacks were in much better shape, as were the smaller (13" and down) whites. It was only the 14"+ whites that were skinny. The reason for this is unknown. The current theory is that these fish may be so old that they are regressing in size. (After aging a few, some of these fish were ancient for a ky lake crappie). A 12 inch white should be eating the same shad as a 15", so lack of food seems unlikely but not out of the question. We hope this isn't a widespread trend, but we will know more as we measure and weigh (hopefully thousands) more crappie in blood river and little river this week. This is another reason we hope to collect some otoliths during the fall shindig since our oldest and largest fish are often underrepresented in our trapnetting samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman
For those of you who catch a lot of these big whites, is the trend of skinny 14+ fish something you have consistently seen? Or have you also seen some healthy ones?
Once again, thanks for your comments
I haven't seen a trend of skinny 14"+ whites at all on Barkley, a few here and there but not nearly as many as healthy ones. But I drink kool-aid lol, what do I know, maybe they all weigh a pound. I haven't weighed a fish in a long time.
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Amartinbio- thanks for the reply. As for the big fish- we personally had 3 over 14”, all whites, and all skinny as can be. However, we fished in the back of big sandy several times and it didn’t seem to matter the size of the crappie they were all long and very skinny. Much skinnier than any other fish we found on the lake. The blacks in there however, did seem healthier.
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My partner and i fished the tournament on Friday and Saturday, by 200 we had caught somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 legal fish with the majority being black crappie, i never thought any of the fish were starving but got to tell you i didnt catch a fish being white or black crappie where i made the statement that these fish are really healthy. None of them we caught appeared to be busting with shad. Out of the roughly 60 keeper fish i would say we had to measure 50 of them, As i stated before, i was on the lake on Wednesday and Thursday scanning and pre-fishing for the tournament and didnt matter where i went the asians were there in huge numbers. After God and Family my passion is crappie fishing and it upsets me to see what is happening to these lakes. I realize it is a huge problem that didnt occur overnight and will not be resolved quickly. Ive always said that i would hope that our kids and grandkids would be able to enjoy these lakes as we have but im starting to think that is probably not going to happen.
Things are different on the lake this year. Super clear water and Asian carp so thick you can't see the bottom. My normal hot spots to pull up and catch a limit are empty with a huge school or carp just down stream stacked right up to the edge. I have had to look in way deeper water than normal. Pull into most any bay and you get in schools of carp that you cant see the bottom on side scan and or down scan. They are producing way to fast I have noticed the large white crappie are thin more so than normal. This time of year they should have a fat belly of shad and there is no where near as much bait fish as usual. I know there is a rollercoaster of spawn years but this is a trend that has started down hill. Look at the crappie usa weights and most of early years were 5 fish a day and averaged 2 lb on both am and pro spring and fall. Lots of tournaments had 20 or more well over 2 and some at 2.75 those weights are not anywhere close now and with a 7 fish limit can't touch those weights. Lots of things are adding to this the carp are not helping the fish are fished harder each year and everyone has GPS and side scan and fish year round. I hear people talk g about putting 4000 to 5000 fish a year in their freezer and only fish one bay. What is the need for that many fish. For the size of Kentucky and Barkley we should see some big fish. I've heard all about the Mississippi fish having a longer growing season but look how hard those lakes are fished and how much research is put in and they supplement fish when there is a bad spawn. Look at the lake kinkade it has a 4 pounder caught this year and is thriving and it's colder there than here. This has not come over night and won't be fixed overnight and we all know that.
This is something we all need to help figure out and work hand in hand with fish and wildlife to get this under control before it's to late and we don't have this resource. Anyone that can say the fish are as healthy as every and see no problems is a fool. Look at where you are fishing compared to last few years. How much more ground and time it takes for you to get your fish. And look at what your catching vs a few years ago. I see it with what I catch and see it on here some of the fish caught now might have one or two ok fish but most are small.
This year we've put well over 100 white crappie over 14" in my boat, several up to 16". Every one of them is poor like one would expect just after spawn. As fall gets here in years past, we would see the crankbait crappie starting to put on weight and some so heavy they looked like pre-spawn. I've seen zero this year. I check stomach contents of every crappie I clean that has something there. Most of the fish's' stomachs are empty. I don't know of more than a couple that had 2 or more minnows in there. I also try to ID what kinds of minnows that are in stomach contents and I can say with zero doubt that some are Asian Carp.
We fished yesterday in areas I traditionally fish in the fall and saw ONE baitball that is what I would call normal size. The lack of baitballs is scaring the crap out of me.
A Martin, you guys need to plan of coming to my taxidermy studio after the Fruit Jar weight in. We will clean all caught that day here. Your best source of location info will come at the actual weigh-in at Miller Park.
I also agree with J Riley. The lake never muddied up this year and is as clear now as I've ever seen. I'm shocked it hasn't turned over with surface temps now in mid-50s.
I have never said the fishing hasn't changed any or that I am not concerned about the carp. But I also won't stand by and let alot of sketchy at best info be thrown out and watch our biologists who are trying to protect the fisheries be trashed. Even if it means being labeled as drinking the kool-aid or a fool.
2015 Crappie USA Super Results
https://www.crappieusa.com/Tournamen...rnament_ID=531
10 fish per day bags in the early years CUSA
https://www.crappieusa.com/Tournamen...ournament_ID=9
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Since u have mentioned 2 different times about the kool aid statement , i dont think i mentioned your name personally and kool aid in the same statement, but if i hurt your feelings i apologize! Although i will say i wouldnt spend a lot of time assuming things in life that cause your feelings to get hurt as it will make an old man out of you before your time.
The info I posted is on crappie usa and can be looked at from 1999 to present. The weights are all there so if info is "sketcky" then that's their problem. As for pab no one has called you out on saying you haven't had to change fishing ways. There is a problem on our lakes and needs to be addressed and handled. I'm sure you notice the quality of fish isn't what it used to be we all see it. I have set in on the meetings held here and the struggles of finding ways to get rid of the carp and heard from the commercial fisherman that prices on fish don't pay enough to catch them and kdfw has helped in adding money to the price. This needs to be top priority and figured out or we won't have to worry about any fishing or boating on the lake. If they produce like they have in the last 5 years the next five it's going to get bad
I also fished the USA Classic and will say that I have never seen the crappie in such poor shape. We fished for 7 days and biggest fish was 1.25 lb absolutely horrible. I heard a bunch of people who fished including myself say that it wasn't worth my money or time. I can honestly say I am glad the Classic is at Cumberland next year and will voice my opinion to Crappie USA that until the Asian carp are dealt with I would suggest taking Ky lake and Barkley off the trail at the least no more classics there. I will not be making that drive again. Not to mention the dang things jumping in the boat and bout knocking my partner silly.
We can remove the otoliths wherever works best for you, but we need to know the location of the individual fish. We can bring some waterproof labels and bag the fish if necessary. Alternatively we can remove the otoliths at the weigh in, sex the fish, and then the fish can be taken elsewhere and filleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdux
Nevermind, I have linked results from 2015, you can get to all the results from there. Folks can decide for their self. I am aware of how far they go back and how many fish they weighed then, I learned alot of what I know from a guy that was in alot of those write ups for finishing around the top in those early years.
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I think poor condition could be because the water got hot early this year.
Give them a month to gorge on shad, I think their condition will improve.
I've noticed a decline gizzard and the threadfin in cumberland, but I believe it's because the alewiife are eating the shad fry
Green river lake is absolutely full of young gizzard shad but the crappie are thin
I'm not sure how anyone can apologize for your dealings with these carp during your 7 days. But I and many others deal with them all year long. I had a 3 to 4 ft silver jumper over my bow on Saturday, that size will get your attention real quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powertroll
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The lakes have been very clear for the past two years with lower than normal flows. Yes, we have had some spotty moments where it has gotten stained, but nothing like it normally gets. Spring time it looks like you can run a disk thru it and plant corn!
The current conditions mirror last fall, and the same rumors and concerns with the bait fish. This past winter we slaughtered the crappie, and they were bulging with bait fish.
The crappie I have been catching the past two weekends are starting to visually see their stomachs bulging, so it shouldn't be much longer and you will see the results of their feedbags!
Now, we have a huge problem with these carp. I've been to the meetings and try to stay informed on the subject. I'm shocked that a single sole has commented on Adam's figures:
600-700 mm ~24"
That scientific data collection has them estimating that the lake or lakes has 600 to 700 MILLION ASIAN CARP, all in the 2ft range! Those numbers don't include the fry, carp fingerlings, small carp and all the bigger 2+ ft carp!!
These fish are without a doubt destroying our fisheries. And to think that the federal government is going to remedy the problem is a hard pill to swallow. Remember, the federal government said decades ago that these fish would never survive in the Mississippi River. No big surprise but the government was wrong again....
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Sorry for the confusion. The "mm" stands for millimeters. I meant to show that he vast majority of fish are from only one successful spawn in 2015. Once again, if anyone sees small carp in gut contents, take a picture. We havent seen any in any of our multiple sampling methods this years. We do not know the density of carp in the lake other than to say that they are obviously very numerous. We can track it roughly with commercial harvest numbers, (which has increased every year since the program began) but that doesn't tell us the true density. We are planning some new sampling techniques that will let us know the densities in particular bays. I'll try to keep you guys posted on that since some of it may interfere with your ability to fish certain embayments for a few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by bandchaser
I probably had 6 carp jump in the boat last week alone while crappie sampling, so we see what you guys see. However, the crappie sampling has looked pretty good. Numbers of age 2 and 3 fish have looked good so far (more details on that later). The crappie fishing has been one of the best years on record (more details on that after we've completed the creel survey for the year).
We very much realize that we aren't doing enough about Asian carp. However, efforts to bolster the commercial removal of these fish are constantly moving forward. Our processors tell us that they can handle much more fish so we our working on a logistical solution for that issue. Big things are happening with Asian carp in west ky. Our commercial fishermen harvest around 3,000,000 pounds a year now. Expect that number to increase, and thank a commercial fishermen if you see one on the water.
Once again, thanks for the comments
Thanks for all of your input on this subject. I am from Tennessee, and fish the river mainly from the I-40 bridge south to Pickwick Dam. There isn't any feedback from the TWRA on here that I have seen, so I am not sure how my state is handling this. But, I would think that being that the Tennessee River runs through several different states, as does the Mississippi River, that there would have to be a joint effort amongst the adjoining states to work together to help with the carp issue? It's kinda like deer hunting: If you are letting 6 pointers walk on your farm, but the adjoining farm shoots them, then you are just spinning your wheels. Also, I had a question about the crappie size. I have caught mostly 9-9 3/4 crappie this year. I usually have to catch 7-10 fish to get a 10" fish. Why are there so many fish in that 9"+ range? Should we be catching 10"+ fish like that come next year?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartinbio
Adam,Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartinbio
Again, Thanks for your and Paul's efforts on this. I'm not a patient person when I see something I love and depend on for part of my income being destroyed right before my eyes. When I attended the meeting with F&W and the Tourism Board earlier, I fully expected to start to see more commercial netting and presence on the lake. I was actually hoping to have to zig-zag my way into the mouths of bays, staying away from the nets. Other than a couple of Hancock Biological Station sample nets, I am yet to see but one net and that was at the Jonathan Creek 68 bridge early one morning and it was removed and the boat gone before we could thank the fisherman.
Do you have any idea if the supplemental $$ is being paid to help the commercial fishermen get into the black so they can start netting as hard as they can?
You are absolutely correct. It will take a multistate effort. Ky got an early (or at least one of the earliest jumps on the Asian carp issue). (We know it wasn't early enough). Funding for this work has always been an issue which is why our director and others have visited congress countless times to secure more funding. Other states are coming along but are generally speaking a little more behind. I am not aware of any states who aren't taking a proactive approach to this problem so we hope things will improve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutbush
We are also seeing a lot of 9.75 inch which are predominantly age 2 (we will know more after some microscope work in a couple of weeks). Our typical age 3 fish will be 10 inches in the spring.
Most of my 14” and 15” whites from this year have been healthy looking fish. It was one of the best early spring crappie years that I have ever fished with limits starting the second week of February and a solid summer of trolling. The last two weeks have been tough fishing for a lot of folks on the water as the fish and lake are transitioning so I wouldn’t base my assessment of the fishery on last weekend’s tournament alone. Its sad to see the lakes be overtaken by the carp and believe the long term effects are just a guess at this point. But it’s. It all gloom and doom at this point, it is time for the legislators to just acknowledge the magnitude of the problem and start allocating funds to find a way to sustain a viable commercial fishing industry on the twin lakes.
As a sport fish biologist I don't know the exact amount that has been payed out so far for the 5 cent subsidy. I can tell you that the subsidy has been in place and available for some time now with relatively little participation. (I can try to get those figures if you're interested) The vast majority if not all of the carp fishermen conduct their netting at night to avoid conflicts with anglers and boaters. Most of these are surface net sets so they are required to stay with their nets while they fish. If they can get off the water before Recreational anglers, they will. As rec anglers, please support our commercial fishermen if you see them.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdux
That being said, we need more commercial fishermen to catch these fish. The current goals are trying to alleviate some logistical concerns that the fishermen and markets have. It's fairly complicated but the department is trying to make it easier for commercial fishermen to transport and sell their fish in good condition for the markets. This will also involve some help for and from surrounding states. This is a long term effort with multiyear plans and everyone is learning as we go.
I understand your concerns and that is why criticism doesn't bother me at all. These are important fisheries and we all have the same goal of protecting them. Fisheries management is a team sport. One of the goals of our district is to have well informed anglers. (Too often we have done a poor job of keeping the public informed) Thanks for your support.
I have set in on the F&W meetings with the commercial fisherman and I understand what they are up against. They catch these fish and have to take them to the plant and they have to keep fish on ice if I remember correctly. I think the surrounding counties of the lake need to get on board and help these fishermen try and get a plant moved in closer or help with a drop and transport place. Just wondering if this is a possibility close down a bay at 2 pm one afternoon and reopen it at noon the following day. Do it on a non peek time of year and a week day. Post the bay and time and dates I know me as a fisherman and several others it wouldn't bother if I happen to want to fish that day I would use another spot. Let these fisherman target that bay for that amount of time and try and have some transport set up maybe from the plant and the counties help. This will affect more than just fishing. The whole lake life will be affected and the money being brought in to these local businesses will see a drop as it continues.