F&W care to chime in on this one?

My wife and I were in a cove on KY Lake early yesterday morning that was full of white and yellow bass chasing minnows. As we trolled thru the melee, there was the constant and unmistakable swirls and splashes of Bighead carp---all in the schools of minnows. We saw no Silvers jumping, just the glimpse of the carp up to 3-4 feet long and the swirls like I kicked my 112 Pound RipTide motor on just under the surface.

I keep hearing and reading that we have nothing to fear from the carp eating minnows or harming small fish. I just have a really hard time believing a 50 pound Asian carp that sucked in a mouth full of minnows is going to spit them out and move on to other food sources.

I want to believe we are being told the truth about the carp and their effects on fisheries but I keep seeing things with my own eyes that tell me different. Catching a couple of Silvers on crankbaits HOOKED DEEP IN THE MOUTH on the rear hook isn't a coincidence in my mind. Seeing Bigheads feeding right in the middle of white bass jumps isn't either.

MR, so from your post, yes, you can catch some bugle-mouthed bass(carp) trolling with crank baits. I agree with you that they are eating small fish/minnows. I have cleaned a few carp recentlyl,(bugle mouthed bass) and found what I think was small fish in it's gut. But, I guess the next time you hook into one of the Silvers, you will need to clean it and see what it has been eating to confirm. I know, most people don't clean a Carp, but if you remove the 'Mud' Vein, it's not too bad and you get a pile of meat. Spent most of younger years at a pay lake with my grandfather fishing for carp. This experience REALLY taught me patience for fishing. We would spend 8 hours fishing sometimes getting 1 or 2 runs/bites during the 8 hours of watching a couple rods on the bank. Sometimes we go lucky and caught 3-6 with our doughballs.

I will wait for Paul's response...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by perchjerker108

MR, so from your post, yes, you can catch some bugle-mouthed bass(carp) trolling with crank baits. I agree with you that they are eating small fish/minnows. I have cleaned a few carp recentlyl,(bugle mouthed bass) and found what I think was small fish in it's gut. But, I guess the next time you hook into one of the Silvers, you will need to clean it and see what it has been eating to confirm. I know, most people don't clean a Carp, but if you remove the 'Mud' Vein, it's not too bad and you get a pile of meat. Spent most of younger years at a pay lake with my grandfather fishing for carp. This experience REALLY taught me patience for fishing. We would spend 8 hours fishing sometimes getting 1 or 2 runs/bites during the 8 hours of watching a couple rods on the bank. Sometimes we go lucky and caught 3-6 with our doughballs.

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You're probably talking about Common Carp (orange-ish colored fish) .... they'll eat about anything. Mrdux is referring to Silver & Bighead Carp ... the Asian Carp that are (supposedly) only plankton feeders.

If they were to "evolve" to where they begin to actively feed on minnows perhaps some sports fisherman would begin to target them with rod and reel and that may help to offset some of the population a slight bit, although I doubt it would make a big difference. A fish that size would be a popular target if they could be successfully caught on a rod.

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Originally Posted by Slow Retrieve

If they were to "evolve" to where they begin to actively feed on minnows perhaps some sports fisherman would begin to target them with rod and reel and that may help to offset some of the population a slight bit, although I doubt it would make a big difference. A fish that size would be a popular target if they could be successfully caught on a rod.

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I would love to see F&W allow snagging for Asian carp on the lakes. Burying a big treble in a 70 pounder would be like tying onto a jet-ski. Stick it/kill it. Everybody wins.

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Originally Posted by mrdux

I would love to see F&W allow snagging for Asian carp on the lakes. Burying a big treble in a 70 pounder would be like tying onto a jet-ski. Stick it/kill it. Everybody wins.

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Do you think they are afraid that it would be abused and people would intentionally snag all types of fish and just say they were "targeting" the Asian Carp if caught?

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Originally Posted by Slow Retrieve

Do you think they are afraid that it would be abused and people would intentionally snag all types of fish and just say they were "targeting" the Asian Carp if caught?

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I think the effect would be less than below KY Dam where any fish caught by snagging that aren't allowed have to be immediately released. Up until the incident we witnessed Monday, most any place I've seen the Asian carp tend to group up, the other fish around pack their bags.

This is the first year that I have seen this many silvers on kentucky lake. Seen a few over the years but right now you can get in 5 feet of water, do a couple of circles and watch them jump..Glad they haven't ever breeched the side of my pontoon!! Had one knock himself out jumping into the bottom of my deck under the boat.

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Originally Posted by mrdux

I would love to see F&W allow snagging for Asian carp on the lakes. Burying a big treble in a 70 pounder would be like tying onto a jet-ski. Stick it/kill it. Everybody wins.

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I remember seeing an article about a guide doing this below the dam. Folks were paying good money to do it too.

Crappiepappy, Yep, I know about the Common, Grass, Silver, Bighead, Leather and Buffalo carp. I was replying about the Silver Carp. I think I've caught at least 2-50 of each of these, and the Silver are a lot different than the common Carp. This is the one I was talking about that I caught. I guess it's hard to admit, but I love trying to catch these things. They fight/run like a freight train. I am not in an area to catch the Asian carp, but these now seem to be a big problem.

Later, Jim

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Originally Posted by perchjerker108

Crappiepappy, Yep, I know about the Common, Grass, Silver, Bighead, Leather and Buffalo carp. I was replying about the Silver Carp. I think I've caught at least 2-50 of each of these, and the Silver are a lot different than the common Carp. This is the one I was talking about that I caught. I guess it's hard to admit, but I love trying to catch these things. They fight/run like a freight train. I am not in an area to catch the Asian carp, but these now seem to be a big problem.

Later, Jim

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:scratchhead ... Jim, the Silver Carp ARE one of the Asian Carp invaders !! What lake are you catching these things in ??

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Originally Posted by mrdux

My wife and I were in a cove on KY Lake early yesterday morning that was full of white and yellow bass chasing minnows. As we trolled thru the melee, there was the constant and unmistakable swirls and splashes of Bighead carp---all in the schools of minnows. We saw no Silvers jumping, just the glimpse of the carp up to 3-4 feet long and the swirls like I kicked my 112 Pound RipTide motor on just under the surface.

I keep hearing and reading that we have nothing to fear from the carp eating minnows or harming small fish. I just have a really hard time believing a 50 pound Asian carp that sucked in a mouth full of minnows is going to spit them out and move on to other food sources.

I want to believe we are being told the truth about the carp and their effects on fisheries but I keep seeing things with my own eyes that tell me different. Catching a couple of Silvers on crankbaits HOOKED DEEP IN THE MOUTH on the rear hook isn't a coincidence in my mind. Seeing Bigheads feeding right in the middle of white bass jumps isn't either.

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Hey guys, thats very interesting that you saw them there mixed in with the other species. In my professional opinion, I highly doubt that the carp were consuming any of the baitfish. If youve ever cut one open you can easily observe that their guts and mouths are not designed to consume fish, even small ones. No diet study, (of which there have been several, including one on ky lake) has found any fish in their guts. That being said, there was a recent paper published modeling the potential effects of asian carp introductions into the great lakes and they did include one model which simulated what would happen if the Asian carp did consume larval fish. (they predicted greater damaging effects when they eat larval fish) I don't personally know how it got published since there is no evidence supporting the idea that they eat larval fish, but I thought Id let you know about it.
There is also a theory that they will hold a fish in their mouths and attempt to knock off some scales or other particulates and consume them before spitting the fish out. This is speculative because its very hard to test for.
I have personally caught them in the mouth on swimbaits. I have also caught a paddlefish on a jug. In my opinion these are incidental hookings due to their open mouth feeding behavior.

you can test this yourselves next time you hook one or one jumps in. Remove the hooks from your crankbait and try to force it into the carps throat. If you manage to force it in, I encourage you to cut open the fish and observe its intestine (it will likely be damaged from the size of the lure)

This is good info amartin. Personally, I wont even get one in the boat to find out.

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Originally Posted by Amartinbio

Hey guys, thats very interesting that you saw them there mixed in with the other species. In my professional opinion, I highly doubt that the carp were consuming any of the baitfish. If youve ever cut one open you can easily observe that their guts and mouths are not designed to consume fish, even small ones. No diet study, (of which there have been several, including one on ky lake) has found any fish in their guts. That being said, there was a recent paper published modeling the potential effects of asian carp introductions into the great lakes and they did include one model which simulated what would happen if the Asian carp did consume larval fish. (they predicted greater damaging effects when they eat larval fish) I don't personally know how it got published since there is no evidence supporting the idea that they eat larval fish, but I thought Id let you know about it.
There is also a theory that they will hold a fish in their mouths and attempt to knock off some scales or other particulates and consume them before spitting the fish out. This is speculative because its very hard to test for.
I have personally caught them in the mouth on swimbaits. I have also caught a paddlefish on a jug. In my opinion these are incidental hookings due to their open mouth feeding behavior.

you can test this yourselves next time you hook one or one jumps in. Remove the hooks from your crankbait and try to force it into the carps throat. If you manage to force it in, I encourage you to cut open the fish and observe its intestine (it will likely be damaged from the size of the lure)

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Thank you for your reply.

Wrong thread Rich.

Thats a drum

It's been a busy day of sampling so I didnt get to reply fully earlier. One of the reasons that scientists dont believe they are eating fish is because those kinds of adaptations take several generations and their has to be a reason for them to be adapting. Currently these fish are very well adapted to eating plankton. Everything about them is designed to eat plankton efficiently. This design has made them into extremely good invaders who easily outcompete our native planktivores in most situations. A shift to eating fish would happen very slowly and might work something like this.

Hypothetically,

genetic variation in our bighead carp might mean that some of them have slightly bigger throat openings or slightly wider intestines. Those with that larger opening might be able to ingest some larval fish or eggs. Those fish that eat the larval fish would have to be more likely to survive than the other fish with smaller throats and intestines . Those large throated fish would then be more likely to pass on their genes to their progeny. Within the next generation, suppose that the ones with the largest throats were able to eat slightly larger larval fish and again survived longer and spawned more successfully than their smaller throated brothers and sisters. This trend would have to continue quite a while (years and years and years) for there to be any fish capable of eating a d20 or any of the baits Ive caught them on. All of this hinges on a need for them to adapt.

All of this being said, I have always been curious about observing for myself whether they might ingest some larval fish when the densities of larval fish are really high. During about a 3 week span each spring their are millions of small (<10mm) shad which might fit in their throats. No one has ever observed any fish in their guts and I believe the research, but seeing is believing so I may cut a few open myself! This would still be a far cry from them eating an adult or juvenile shad, but theres always a chance.

Hypothetically:

What if the mutation you mention should occur naturally? We all know of species that have changed ranges; ie coyotes, armadillos, even redears. I'm 60 years old and never knew redears existed until about 25 years ago when we started seeing clearer water due in large part to acquatic vegetation that TVA then, in their infinite wisdom, decided to kill off all the while swearing they were not spraying. Why not food sources if their chosen food became less available? Those who sought out new food sources would be most likely to survive, thrive, and procreate.

Should there be a few breeders who mutated and then spawned 2-3 times annually, how long would it be until we would be able to convince the powers that be that "Houston, we have a problem" and what would be the reaction of the powers that be? Imagine the horror that the fish we had been told for years was no threat was all of a sudden Frankenfish? It has happened elsewhere and with other species. That is the scenario that worries me the most. Zombie apocalypse would be nothing compared to the effect of such.

I never heard of an Asian carp 20 years ago.

Totally possible. A natural evolution toward that could theoretically happen, but this type of change is very different from a change in ranges. Certain species can definitely adapt to an abundant resource if other species aren't utilizing it effectively. In this case the carp would be moving from a feeding niche (plankton) which they can dominate, to a feeding niche they are terrible at (eating fish). This is theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely. it's also possible for other plankton feeding fish such as paddlefish. It's just really unlikely and would take something on the order of 100's of years.

I am sure that researchers will continue to perform diet analyses on Asian carp, so time will tell. I can tell you that the first researcher to show that they eat fish won't hide the results. Even finding one Asian carp with fish inside of it would be a guaranteed front page publication involving multiple appearances on the national stage. There is also no motive that I'm aware of for anyone to hide results showing that they eat fish, but there may be some motive that I'm not aware of. If anyone cuts one open and finds fish, let me know because I want to publish it!

Why not just ask the people at the processing plants ?? Or send an agent over there to look at the stomach contents for themselves ?? :scratchhead

a year long diet study was completed by a graduate student 2 years ago on ky lake Asian carp. Some of those fish were market fish. Observing adult or juvenile prey fish would be easy to see at the market, but larval fish would require a dissecting microscope. (A microscope was used for the diet study).
I've heard multiple people tell me that they talked to a commercial fishermen who cut one open and found all kinds of fish. (We collect market data all of the time and have never observed any fish or been told by a processor that they found some.) not sure where the rumor got started? Maybe someone here knows?

At this point it's not worth the cost of another diet study so soon after the previous one.

Hypothetically, if one of these carp did have a larger throat which allowed it to swallow fish, larval eggs, ect....then it spawned, with very high-quality conditions, and this adult carp produces up to its potential in eggs which is +/- 1,000,000. Now, we have the high potential to have 1,000,001 carp with larger throats. And that is just one potential big throated invasive species that can hypothetically ruin these lakes.
Now, say 1% of the population has this, then spawns with average to peak spawning conditions. How many adapting fish swallowing invasive enemies does this put into our ecosystem??
I'm sorry, but this problem has to be addressed much, much faster than all the agencies just collecting data and waiting for the implementation of the alligator gar to radicate these fish. Which that idea doesn't hold water either because the average carp is growing g approximately 16" per year in its first few years.
I understand the political correctness but it's time to be real here. Our government, state and federal, has no clue what to do about this. The guilty parties from decades ago need to be held accountable for the current problems, and the eradication of them as well. It's time for the virus to be used to rid these invasive species so that we can all move forward.

Asian carp are a serious problem, but the concern is not that they will mutate and begin eating out sport fish. This is incredibly far fetched. They compete for plankton resources and that is bad enough.

There is currently no silver bullet for Asian carp. No viruses, no bacteria, no gene therapy. If we had a silver bullet, we would pull the trigger. We would have no reason not to. It just doesn't exist yet.
You are right that there isn't a great plan to eradicate them. Michigan is currently offering a 1,000,000 dollar reward for anyone who can solve the problem of Asian carp and the Great Lakes (If we had a secret virus, we would claim the money). Commercial harvest is the best control option we have. We have multiple staff working on this project. (Our local Asian carp branch currently outnumbers our old staff 6:3).
Alligator gar were not stocked to control Asian carp. They were stocked because they were formerly native.