still making comparisions

I love this forum and those who are willing to offer their opions and input. Last week while making my compariions, I commented in regards to the Garmin's transducer problem. In doing comparisons, I am now looking at Humminbird and Lowrance. Great sonar units.I have a Lowrance unit on the front and was leaning towards maybe going to Humminbird for comparisons along beside the Lowrance. My biggest block now is the overlay on the left side of the screen. Buy a 5 inch screen and loose an inch and a half back.No wonder this forum is filled with owners unhappy about being able to read the screen. Humminbird compared to a 5 inch Lowrance, the Lowrance will show more image. I realize this is kind of picky , but that's just me. I am forever seeing the guy that gripes about not getting GPS when he bought an X Lowrance unit.It pays to check things out BEFORE you make the purchase. As stated these are both great sonar units and it would be hard to make a bad decision and maybe I am completely off base. If you have any input pros or cons, feel free to express them.......thanks everybody, this is one great forum.......crappie1133

Here is my two cents:

I own, at present time, 5 different HDS Gen 2 non touch units (Lowrance) and 1 HDS Gen 3 touch unit. I really am not quite sure why people are buying GPS pucks for them as I have NEVER (say again) NEVER had an issue picking up GPS signal. I rely on mine day in and day out and I am constantly running mapping software. The ONLY time I cannot get a signal is when I am in my Metal barn. That is it.

I cannot comment on differences and similarities with the birds because I am not a bird user and that just wouldn't be fair. Obviously, I am happy with Lowrance units because I own so many of them. I do like some of the features and views of the bird units however... I have attempted to play with them at the store and they were just to hard for me to operate. It was not intuative (for me) to be able to find what I was looking for. Part of that might be that I am a lowrance user as well so that really isn't a fair comparrison.

I also cannot really comment on the lesser priced Hook or Elite models as I do not own them. I will say that, the bigger the screen you purchase, the happier you will be. They are running some big sales right now on the HDS Gen 3 touch (non carbon) units and I've kicked around the idea of picking up a 12 to add to my arsenal!

Like you said, each probably has their advantages and disadvantages and you cannot go wrong with either.

Present HB software versions in HELIX units allow shuttng off the data boxes and overlay depth, speed and temp in the lower left of the screen ...

Rickie

I run HB because they link to each other, link to the trolling motor, AutoChart Pro, 360, and LakeMaster mapping features. Unrelated to sonar I also like HB, MinnKota, and the rest of Johnson Outdoor products. I even use a Eureka tents and have about 5-6 for a variety of uses.
I started with HB Piranaha Max units. Up until 3 weeks ago I still had one on the bow of the boat. Now I have two core HB units, a 899HD SI, and a 898 SI unit. Couldn't be happier. Maybe one day I'll step up to the Generation2 (G2) units and add that 360.

I can't comment too much on the Lowrance units. Suffice to say I have limited experience with them. I did have a Lowrance GPS unit I used before I bought a sonar unit and it worked okay. Buddy has Lowrance products on his boat and I have had to show him how to use them. Took me all of 5 minutes to read enough of the owners manual to get the units set for him to use the way he likes to fish. The menu navigation is simple and straight forward. HB units are similar and just as easy to use.

Which units you get, depends on how YOU intend to use them? SI/DI/2D is about the same, and each has their brand name for it and they will all claim there's is the best. Once you get past sonar image you need to look at features, options. Me personally, I will never own a touch screen unit, not even a phone. Yep, I still have a flip phone and love it. I can't justify putting my fish slim'd fingers on my sonar screen. Just ain't going to happen. So that leaves other options. Do you care about I-Pilot Link, down riggers, radar, weather satellite, etc.

If I were starting from scratch, I would figure out how I plan to use sonar in combination with my fishing techniques and select the brand that will meet those needs. Like I said, I like linking my units together, ability to chart lakes (most my local lakes are uncharted), ability to connect 360 sonar and choose HB for those reasons.

I bought a puck for my hds8 gen2 actually a point one antenna/heading sensor. It's worth the money for orientation and accuracy over the built in one. It also serves my old global map 5200c that's mounted above the HDS8.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wicklundrh

Here is my two cents:

I own, at present time, 5 different HDS Gen 2 non touch units (Lowrance) and 1 HDS Gen 3 touch unit. I really am not quite sure why people are buying GPS pucks for them as I have NEVER (say again) NEVER had an issue picking up GPS signal. I rely on mine day in and day out and I am constantly running mapping software. The ONLY time I cannot get a signal is when I am in my Metal barn. That is it.

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If referring to the Point 1 antenna (gps puck).... it has NOTHING to do with "having an issue picking up a GPS signal. It has EVERYTHING to do with more accurate waypoint marking and being able to line up exactly on a waypoint from a distance away and know you are ACTUALLY pointing directly at it. Or simply being able to know exactly where some waypoints really are in relation to the boat. The heading sensor function of the Point 1 antenna is the only way the unit can know EXACTLY the direction your bow is pointed. Since the unit knows this information.... your map will not spin, or rotate, or jump around when you are sitting still or barely drifting. The map will stay rock steady for you and you can run the map "heading up" so that what you see out the front of your boat is exactly what the map shows on the screen. No having to think about which direction something is sometimes if you are currently running "north up". Or... if fishing a brushpile and the wind slowly drifting you backwards, waypoints on your screen will sometimes rotate 180 degrees and look like they are on the other side of the boat. Not with the Point 1.

As far as waypoint accuracy.... the gps from the point 1 is Exactly the same as the gps in the Gen3 unit. However.... by placing the point 1 antenna on the back of your boat.... as close as you can reasonably get it to being above your transducer (without getting electrical interference from the big motor), you will be getting the most accurate gps coordinates when you mark something you see on the console screen because the antenna is almost above your transducer. If you are using the internal gps as the gps source of your console unit..... then the gps coordinates are saved from where the console unit sits..... and that could be a decent distance from your transducer that is displaying the image. So inaccuracy is instantly present in addition to the already present inaccuracy that we get from non military gps. Then to get the most out of the bow unit (if aslo connected to the NMEA network the Point1 is connected to), you will need to set your HDS up to use its own internal gps as the gps "source" in settings.... but enable the Point 1 heading sensor. This way, you still get great accuracy from your bow unit gps (becaue it is pretty close to being above your trolling motor transducer (most of the time)), and you get the added benefit of sharing the Point 1 heading sensor with the bow unit.... letting you perfectly line up on waypoints and it keeping your map from spinning, jumping or acting funny when not moving enough for the unit to know your direction of travel. This is an advantage for the Lowarnce units, because you can "share" a single Point 1 antenna to any units hooked up the nmea network. With humminbird, you will need to hook up an "as gps hs" puck to EACH unit because you can not share JUST the heading sensor function of the antenna. You CAN share the antenna if the units are networked.... but you have to share the gps AND heading information to each unit. So the bow unit will save coordinates based on the antenna location. However... if you jump up to the Onix or Solix humminbird units, I believe you can split the information up like I described for the lowrance system.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel like a lot of people don't really understand the added benefits of the Lowrance Point 1 antenna. I consider it the single best accessory I have ever added to my Lowrance system. Now I will say this.... if all you do is "beat the bank fish" and never fish offshore brushpiles or structure.... then the Point 1 is really of no benefit to you. However... if you mainly fish brushpiles and such..... it is AWESOME.

I think both Lowrance and Humminbird offer great units. I have Lowrance "currently" (HDS 9 units) but I have had a lot of hands on use with the gen1 Helix units too. I said "currently" a second ago about using Lowrance because my next move (by this time next year, I hope) will be to remove my stuff and install Helix 10 Mega units. That new technology is really something. I feel like the image quality is a notch above what Lowrance offers. PLUS, I am going to link them up to my Ultrex trolling moor. Just my opinions though.

Joe

Having extensive knowledge in regards to grid and waypoint accuracy due to my time and training in the Marine Corps, I completely understand the technologies involved. I do however beleive that people have been sold a line of crap in relation to the point 1 antenna.

Placing the puck directly over your transducer isn't going to gain you a whole lot. The reason... most of these units operate on an 8 or 10 digit grid coordinate. An 8 digit grid is only accurate to within 10 meters. A 10 digit grid is only accurate to within 1 meter. 1 Meter you say... that is pretty close. Nope, not in relation to 1 meter of where you are at, but relation to within 1 meter of the "scale" of the mapping software you utilize.

" An often-confusing point is that most NIMA 1:50,000 scale maps are made to an accuracy of 50m
at the 90% confidence interval. This means that 90% of all well-defined points on a map will fall within a 50
meter radius of their actual position on the earth’s surface. The confusion comes in when soldiers try to
use a map to get a 10-digit grid coordinate, which equates to a 1 meter precision. A 1:50,000 scale map is
only accurate to 50m 90% of the time so a 6 digit (100m precision) or an 8 digit (10m precision) are more
appropriate. A 1:250,000 scale map maintains an accuracy of 250 meters at the 90% confidence interval."

So, having the puck over your transducer on an 18 foot boat where your helm is say, 6 feet away and your helm unit (with internal GPS) is sitting, is not any more accurate than simply utilizing the internal GPS software.

Relation has everything to do with mapping software and not the antenna. As for the heading, I've never had an issue with maps bouncing, spinning, or anything else. I troll 95% of the time. Whether it be on contours, point to point, or waypoint to waypoint.

That being said, if they give you the unit for free, you never sniff a gift fish, but I personally wouldn't purchase it as an add on. Not when you are talking mapping software that cannot realistically get you accurate enough to get you down within a specific perameter.

"Trolling around" and constantly moving.... is why the heading sensor doesn't make much difference for you. As long as your moving enough for the units to detect your direction of travel, you won't have any issue with the map.

I'm not a trained expert with lots of technical training in gps, in fact you could say I'm pretty much a nobody and offer no credentials as to why anyone should listen to what I have to say. However, to say that people have been "sold a line of crap" about the Point 1 antenna, I would have to respectfully whole heartedly disagree with. I used my units for a time period with out the point 1 antenna. After adding the point 1 antenna, I instantly saw benefits in having the accessory, for the way I fish. Some people have it and don't set it up right to get the most out of it. Some have it and don't properly install it correctly and others read things such as you posted and believe it is a worthless piece of equipment and never experience the added benefits it can provide.

The most benefit can be gained for the guy that is not an expert and just wants to have things set up to make fishing offshore structure as easy as possible. It helps the guy that wants to pull up to a brushpile or multiple brushpiles and sit still and know exactly where they are located in relation to the direction your boat is pointed. It's awesome for someone targeting a waypoint that is casting distance away to know that you can be at any angle or direction from it and still look at your map and easily know you are pointed directly at it and hit the target much more consistently.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of everything. I just hate it when someone's opinion of something can ruin it for someone else that could actually benefit from the equipment. However... I want everyone to realize.... I am obviously not an expert. Just someone trying to help based on my experiences.

Thank you for your service sir!!!

Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wicklundrh

Having extensive knowledge in regards to grid and waypoint accuracy due to my time and training in the Marine Corps, I completely understand the technologies involved. I do however beleive that people have been sold a line of crap in relation to the point 1 antenna.

Placing the puck directly over your transducer isn't going to gain you a whole lot. The reason... most of these units operate on an 8 or 10 digit grid coordinate. An 8 digit grid is only accurate to within 10 meters. A 10 digit grid is only accurate to within 1 meter. 1 Meter you say... that is pretty close. Nope, not in relation to 1 meter of where you are at, but relation to within 1 meter of the "scale" of the mapping software you utilize.

" An often-confusing point is that most NIMA 1:50,000 scale maps are made to an accuracy of 50m
at the 90% confidence interval. This means that 90% of all well-defined points on a map will fall within a 50
meter radius of their actual position on the earth’s surface. The confusion comes in when soldiers try to
use a map to get a 10-digit grid coordinate, which equates to a 1 meter precision. A 1:50,000 scale map is
only accurate to 50m 90% of the time so a 6 digit (100m precision) or an 8 digit (10m precision) are more
appropriate. A 1:250,000 scale map maintains an accuracy of 250 meters at the 90% confidence interval."

So, having the puck over your transducer on an 18 foot boat where your helm is say, 6 feet away and your helm unit (with internal GPS) is sitting, is not any more accurate than simply utilizing the internal GPS software.

Relation has everything to do with mapping software and not the antenna. As for the heading, I've never had an issue with maps bouncing, spinning, or anything else. I troll 95% of the time. Whether it be on contours, point to point, or waypoint to waypoint.

That being said, if they give you the unit for free, you never sniff a gift fish, but I personally wouldn't purchase it as an add on. Not when you are talking mapping software that cannot realistically get you accurate enough to get you down within a specific perameter.

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:Rofl:Rofl:Rofl:Rofl:Rofl:Rofl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaslyguy

"Trolling around" and constantly moving.... is why the heading sensor doesn't make much difference for you. As long as your moving enough for the units to detect your direction of travel, you won't have any issue with the map.

I'm not a trained expert with lots of technical training in gps, in fact you could say I'm pretty much a nobody and offer no credentials as to why anyone should listen to what I have to say. However, to say that people have been "sold a line of crap" about the Point 1 antenna, I would have to respectfully whole heartedly disagree with. I used my units for a time period with out the point 1 antenna. After adding the point 1 antenna, I instantly saw benefits in having the accessory, for the way I fish. Some people have it and don't set it up right to get the most out of it. Some have it and don't properly install it correctly and others read things such as you posted and believe it is a worthless piece of equipment and never experience the added benefits it can provide.

The most benefit can be gained for the guy that is not an expert and just wants to have things set up to make fishing offshore structure as easy as possible. It helps the guy that wants to pull up to a brushpile or multiple brushpiles and sit still and know exactly where they are located in relation to the direction your boat is pointed. It's awesome for someone targeting a waypoint that is casting distance away to know that you can be at any angle or direction from it and still look at your map and easily know you are pointed directly at it and hit the target much more consistently.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of everything. I just hate it when someone's opinion of something can ruin it for someone else that could actually benefit from the equipment. However... I want everyone to realize.... I am obviously not an expert. Just someone trying to help based on my experiences.

Thank you for your service sir!!!

Joe

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Good post, Joe :ThumbsUp

AHHHH, I get what you are saying now! It makes sense. Heading sensor. Would like to see the name changed on it!

As for just verifying location, it isn't much different than the standard GPS setup in the head unit as you are still limited by how accurate the map is. As for knowing which way the boat is moving in relation to that setting, this is where the unit shines. I got you now. Took me two rereads of the post to understand what you are talking about. You are right, it wouldn't mean a hill of beans to me in relation to what I do as I am moving from point to point or staying over a ficticious spot on a map. It is however important when that ficticious spot locates an actual landmark (brushpile in this case) within a certain percentage of accuracy in relation to which side of the brushpile your boat is traveling, swinging, or swaying.

Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense now. From this day forward, I will refer to it as a "heading sensor"! Had one in my big boat years ago for autopilot which allowed for the boat to adjust course due to wind drift. Back in those day they were A LOT more expensive!

I probably didn't describe it as well as some could to make it easier to understand. I kind of ramble while I explain. The "heading sensor" function is the real reason/benefit to buying it. :cheers2

Tight lines,
Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wicklundrh

Having extensive knowledge in regards to grid and waypoint accuracy due to my time and training in the Marine Corps, I completely understand the technologies involved. I do however beleive that people have been sold a line of crap in relation to the point 1 antenna.

Placing the puck directly over your transducer isn't going to gain you a whole lot. The reason... most of these units operate on an 8 or 10 digit grid coordinate. An 8 digit grid is only accurate to within 10 meters. A 10 digit grid is only accurate to within 1 meter. 1 Meter you say... that is pretty close. Nope, not in relation to 1 meter of where you are at, but relation to within 1 meter of the "scale" of the mapping software you utilize.

" An often-confusing point is that most NIMA 1:50,000 scale maps are made to an accuracy of 50m
at the 90% confidence interval. This means that 90% of all well-defined points on a map will fall within a 50
meter radius of their actual position on the earth’s surface. The confusion comes in when soldiers try to
use a map to get a 10-digit grid coordinate, which equates to a 1 meter precision. A 1:50,000 scale map is
only accurate to 50m 90% of the time so a 6 digit (100m precision) or an 8 digit (10m precision) are more
appropriate. A 1:250,000 scale map maintains an accuracy of 250 meters at the 90% confidence interval."

So, having the puck over your transducer on an 18 foot boat where your helm is say, 6 feet away and your helm unit (with internal GPS) is sitting, is not any more accurate than simply utilizing the internal GPS software.

Relation has everything to do with mapping software and not the antenna. As for the heading, I've never had an issue with maps bouncing, spinning, or anything else. I troll 95% of the time. Whether it be on contours, point to point, or waypoint to waypoint.

That being said, if they give you the unit for free, you never sniff a gift fish, but I personally wouldn't purchase it as an add on. Not when you are talking mapping software that cannot realistically get you accurate enough to get you down within a specific perameter.

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Spot On! The difference in distance of the puck and that of the internal GPS antenna isn't enough to spit at, let alone the cost of the puck! jmo

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by armyman

Spot On! The difference in distance of the puck and that of the internal GPS antenna isn't enough to spit at, let alone the cost of the puck! jmo

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

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Your missing the POINT (no pun intended) of the value in the "heading sensor" function of the Point 1 antenna. And I do believe it "helps" in accuracy the way I described setting it up instead of using the internal antenna of the units.... especially if your unit is an older generation unit that does not have as fast a refresh rate as the point 1 or gen3 units.

What y'all are saying, (that its close enough, and not going to make any difference if the gps source is directly over the transducer or if it is 10 feed away) would be like saying..... I'm going to shoot at this squirrel with this 12 gauge shotgun..... but I know that this shotgun has a pattern that spreads out wide..... so I will be fine aiming 6 feet beside the squirrel..... it won't make any difference.... or not enough to spit at!!. Sorry, not me.... I would still aim directly at the squirrel to maximize my chances. Just like if I have the choice, I want my gps antenna as close to the transducer as I can to not add any EXTRA inaccuracy to the already present inaccuracy when I mark a waypoint. Why compound it? All I can say is, It works awesome for me and going right to a saved waypoint is not a problem on the first try. But like I said before..... the point 1 is actually all about the "Heading sensor", not the gps antenna as much. I will NEVER own another system that does not utilize a Heading sensor.

Joe

I believe Humminbird also has a heading sensor gps puck that is an add-on accessory. It matters when you get to below .5mph or so. Anything faster and the gps will usually show boat travel direction. .5 mph and slower and you just get a red circle indicating your location on a map, not your direction of travel. Very frustrating when you are trying to sneak up on a fish crib and you lose direction of travel.

As for gps puck location. While I agree placing the puck over the transducer could be considered pointless considering the error built into civilian gps. I still like the idea of reducing error every chance I can cost justify.

The point one antenna rocks:highfive and I'm a brush pile and structure fisherman. You can fish without a marker bouy at times.

Yes, humminbird's heading sensor/ gps puck is the "as gps hs". Just as valuable as the point 1. When I switch over to humminbird in the near future, I plan on using one for both graphs. I will miss the fact that I can share the single Point 1 between 2 graphs like I can do with Lowrance though. But I believe going with onix or solix would give me that ability.... but I got my eyes on the Helix 10 Mega for the console and bow!! On the other hand, I like that you can hook the humminbird heading sensor up directly to the graph instead of needing the NMEA network like I have to use with Lowrance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanr3

I believe Humminbird also has a heading sensor gps puck that is an add-on accessory. It matters when you get to below .5mph or so. Anything faster and the gps will usually show boat travel direction. .5 mph and slower and you just get a red circle indicating your location on a map, not your direction of travel. Very frustrating when you are trying to sneak up on a fish crib and you lose direction of travel.

As for gps puck location. While I agree placing the puck over the transducer could be considered pointless considering the error built into civilian gps. I still like the idea of reducing error every chance I can cost justify.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaslyguy

Yes, humminbird's heading sensor/ gps puck is the "as gps hs". Just as valuable as the point 1. When I switch over to humminbird in the near future, I plan on using one for both graphs. I will miss the fact that I can share the single Point 1 between 2 graphs like I can do with Lowrance though. But I believe going with onix or solix would give me that ability.... but I got my eyes on the Helix 10 Mega for the console and bow!! On the other hand, I like that you can hook the humminbird heading sensor up directly to the graph instead of needing the NMEA network like I have to use with Lowrance.

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AS GPS HS antenna can be shared over Ethernet between HELIX units ...

Both GPS and heading must be shared in HELIX ...

GPS or heading - (or both) can be shared in ONIX and SOLIX ...

Rickie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rnvinc

AS GPS HS antenna can be shared over Ethernet between HELIX units ...

Both GPS and heading must be shared in HELIX ...

GPS or heading - (or both) can be shared in ONIX and SOLIX ...

Rickie

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Thanks to everyone for their input. I learned a lot about GPS. That was not my question or statement. The statement was that the Lowrance hook 5 has about the same screen coverage as the helix 7 due to the loss of screen to overlay(temp, depth, and etc.). Ricky, are you able to turn the overlay off on all helix models , or just the 9,10, and 12 inch models. Sorry guys for not being more specific,but as always I gained a world of knowledge.... thanks for the comments.......crappie1133

Yes Rickie, I mentioned those details in a previous post but guess I got lazy on this last one and didn't include it again. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rnvinc

AS GPS HS antenna can be shared over Ethernet between HELIX units ...

Both GPS and heading must be shared in HELIX ...

GPS or heading - (or both) can be shared in ONIX and SOLIX ...

Rickie

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Wow, we sure took a round about way to get to stuff didn't we?

And now, I'm going to get one. Why??? Couple reasons. After the explaination, I CAN see a benefit. Two, if it gives me one ounce or edge when tournament fishing, why the heck not. Lastly, because I CAN!!!!

Funny thing: Any other forum and we would have been in an all out war of words. People take things litterally when reading (as if someone is confronting them). On Crappie.com that is NOT the case. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You read others opinions and take them for what they are. Some of them are very factual, and some come from a completely different view point. You read it subjectivly and in the end, you may just learn something, get educated on something, or understand something further. On other sites, you spend more time worrying about what the person said to you and trying to defend yourself, and less time trying to "understand" what they are saying.

I took this as a great discussion albeit it didn't help the original poster. Sorry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crappie1133

Ricky, are you able to turn the overlay off on all helix models , or just the 9,10, and 12 inch models. Sorry guys for not being more specific,but as always I gained a world of knowledge.... thanks for the comments.......crappie1133

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I don't have a HELIX 5 or 7 to confirm ...

Maybe someone with a HELIX 5 or 7 can check under their Setup tab to see if the data boxes can be shut off ...

Rickie

I got a Point 1 for my boat cause it looks cool. Besides, it has 2 lines to look at. One black and one blue if I check the right boxes on the menu. If I am sitting still and the black line moves, I bump the TM and the black line move back where it started from. Keeps me on station. I can also use my sextant.