Lake Murray Striper

Don't want to start a heated debate or ruffle any feathers, but figured I'd pose this question to the folks that fish Murray. Are the stripers becoming a problem?

I, for one, believe they are becoming a huge problem. I believe they are the second most abundant fish in the lake (first being perch) and I think they are wreaking havoc on the crappie population. They are everywhere and I can't think of another fish that would threaten them. They are on top of the food chain as far as I can see.

I keep hearing that striper will not reproduce in the lake except for a few that find moving water up the Big Saluda and that 1,000,000 are stocked yearly? Why? And if they are a virtually a renewable resource why do we have a 21" minimum size limit 9 months out the year? It just doesn't make sense to me. I see other striper fisheries around the state growing much larger striper than Murray with no size limit. I'm sure this has a lot to do with other factors, but it leaves me scratching my head.

To make matters worse, grass carp are stocked and all the grass has been killed out of the lake leaving virtually no habitat. There is no winter draw down to keep shoreline vegetation from drowning (willows, button bushes, ect.) and promote the growth of shoreline cover. Other than man-made cover, Lake Murray is a cover barren lake.

I've fished Murray my whole life and it seems the lake has taken a turn for the worse over the last 10 years. And at the current rate, I don't see any improvement in the near future. Unless you like striper fishing, cat fishing, or chasing bass who are brained washed by bluebacks (also stocked for striper food just as the perch were from what I'm told) you are better off taking a trip elsewhere these days it seems. Aside from the limit change I don't see anything happening to protect our crappie fishing. And from what I've seen there aren't enough DNR boats on the water to enforce the rules.

What's everyone's thoughts? Am I way off base in my thinking?

Crappie predation to striped bass is very minimal, so i would say you are way off base. Like you stated with largemouth the stripers are keyed in on blue backs especially when they are suspended in the big pool. I don't think crappie are ever suspended over 80-100 FOW. Right now with the striper up in the rivers they are full of threadfin shad. Striper are open water fish and your smaller younger crappie are shallow usually isolated around cover. From a few articles I've read white perch are more to blame than any other species other than flatheads. Another major issue with some of the reservoirs is that they aren't as fertile anymore. Clean water act and phosphorus bands have really cleaned up the water and the nutrients that young crappie need to survive. Prime example is Wylie. 15 years ago is used to be nice and green and tremendous fishing. Now it's as clear as Murray and you have to work to get a good limit. Also no striper in Wylie either to blame them.

Most of the opinions I hear are the White Perch pose the biggest threat but your point is well taken. The Striper and the White Perch are closely related and it stands to reason they follow similar patterns. I assumed the perch were the bigger threat because they are so prolific but if you got a much bigger fish like the striper with unchecked numbers they will eat a ton of fish as well.
When we have questioned DNR about how the perch got in the lakes they claim they were put in there by fisherman and DNR never stocked them for fear of them overpopulating and crowding out other fish. As I understand it, they are the reason for the decline of the White Bass. They occur naturally in salt water bays and I can see how they got into Santee through the locks, but somebody put them in the other reservoirs.
The other threat is the humongous catfish you see being caught. I can't imagine how many crappie or bream a 90 lb cat would eat. Course they eat White Perch too so that might be a good thing.

Don't know what the answer is, but keep in mine the SC legislature, not DNR, make the laws governing our hunting and fishing so when you get politics involved lots of stuff happens that make no sense.
I teach an introductory class on fishing for DNR targeted at young kids and one of the question in the teaching guide is to ask the class who makes the laws that regulate fishing. I think DNR would like to see it moved to them from the politicians, and want to make the public aware of this.

First of all it comes down to the almighty dollar. Stripers are a put and take resource. Dnr puts them in and the fishermen take them out. There is no reproduction on Murry or the river system. Striper fishing brings way more money to the state as it is a year round fishery and has more groups lobbying for it. They get first choice when it come to regulations. All of the grass cover was removed from the lake for the homeowner not to help the fisheries. When they had the relicense agreement on the lake there were several groups lobbying for the striper fishery. There was nobody for crappie. SCEG is suppose to drop the lake 8ft every 3 years to help the shoreline brush. SCEG does not care if fishermen catch any fish out of Murray as it is here to produce electricity and flood control not be a top rated fishery. You are just going to have to put up with the crappie fishery as there is nothing that is going to be done to help it. That is why I plan on fishing other SC lake the most in the coming years. My two cents worth Don

Studies have consistently shown that Stripers overwhelmingly prefer soft-finned baits (herring, shad, etc). That's not to say the occasional crappie or Bass or bream is not consumed by a big Striper, but realize it is rare. Stripers also help consume the larger herring and shad, which keeps the average bait fish size smaller, which usually makes them more useable by smaller game fishes (crappie, bass, etc). So in most cases Stripers are beneficial to the other popular game fish. I think the others hit the nail on the head with the White Perch. They essentially are direct competitors with the crappie. I know I catch many a white perch while crappie fishing on other lakes. I fished Murray last month in the big Striper tourney held out Dreher Island on 12/9. One thing many of the competitors commented on was the abundance of small white perch. Many times a bait ball looked like shad, but when a net was thrown on it, hundreds of small white perch were the culprit. My two cents.

Good posts. That's why I asked the question. I am not a biologists nor do I read a bunch of studies. I realize it's all political and I guess that's the part that aggravates me the most. I also know it's all about the dollar. That's what makes the world go round.

I know perch are detrimental to all bodies of water that they infiltrate and hurt other fish populations. I hear what everyone's saying that striper don't feed on crappie, but it's hard for me to believe. This time of year the largest population of crappie and striper are in the same place at the same time. From what I've seen a striper is a vicious fish and will eat what ever is put in front of them.

I don't think striper fishing on Murray is very political. User groups like the midlands striper club help to support DNR studies and contribute a lot of money for stockings. Regulations are changed frequently biased on science. Do you really think politicians would have come up with the 5 and done rule. True the DNR has no regulatory authority but most is based on science. I will say the santee cooper blue catfish laws are politically driven and not science based though. A lot of changes have public comment meeting sessions that are held and very few people attend.

I have cleaned a ton of striper and yes they will eat crappie, but not enough to affect the population, especially on Murray where there is a tremendous herring forage base. I have fished with just about every bait and can get my hands; bream, eel, perch, trout, mullet, and even a few largemouth and crappie before they made it illegal and I can say that striper are actually pretty picky and prefer shad and herring. If there's nothing else to prey on then they might start to consume other fish. I can tell you that there is tons of bait fish up in the rivers now.
Crappie buster next time you hang a couple striper while you are targeting crappie clean them and do a dissection. What better evidence, which ever way to turns out.

Around xmas i cleaned several larger striper from lake wateree that had multiple fingerlength sized crappie in its belly. No doubt that the boys that fish wateree hard will be seeing the same effect in the coming years.

Derek we have discussed this topic several times including yesterday, so I am gone throw my 2 cents in. I do not believe that crappie is a primary food for stripers but I find it hard to believe that they don't eat some of the smaller fish. I think what has messed Murray and other lakes up more than anything is the abundant supply of blueback herring. It has made the bass become more like a striper in the fact that they are rarely on the bank and basically just roam open water now. I really believe in the winter crappie are becoming more like stripers on Murray as well, just roaming open water chasing bait and moving from day to day. Years ago when you found fish on Murray tightlining you could usually go back and fish the same school the next day. Now you basically have to start the searching over again the next day. You will never get anyone to admit it but they probably messed up if you ask me by stocking our lakes with striper and I believe perch were probably stocked as well. I will say that I believe the WORST mistake they ever made was getting rid of the grass, ever since the grass was taking out of the lake the fishing has definitely gone down. The bass, bream, and crappie fishing was booming during this time because of the ample forage. As for the perch I agree with what most have said they are definitely competition for the crappie. I guess the best way we could help is to keep every perch that we catch because as others have said it is all about $$$$ and striper fishing brings in the $$$$, so they are really not worried about the crappie. Greenwood is going down hill as well because they don't let the water up until April 15th now, by this time most of our fish have already spawned. If the water is not all the way up there is essentially no cover at all on this lake for the fry to get around.

I agree with you Roland. We will probably never see a another stitch of grass in Murray. It's not pretty to most folks, and jet skis can't run in it :)

The stripers in Russell and Clark Hill will eat most anything....course most any fish weighing 40 #'s will.

Bioguy, if it's not political, what in science is pushing the minimum 21" rule? I figured that was tournament folks lobbying for trophy fish. Maybe it's working but I haven't noticed a drastic increase in size over the last decade.

I assume striper were native to the Saluda River prior to the construction of the dam for Lake Murray? Otherwise, it seems to me that a fish that can't sustain itself in a reservoir would be invasive to the system.

Lots of good responses here. Glad to see them. Figured this was as good a place as any to get questions answered. Lots of folks on here striper fish too.

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Originally Posted by pete

Around xmas i cleaned several larger striper from lake wateree that had multiple fingerlength sized crappie in its belly. No doubt that the boys that fish wateree hard will be seeing the same effect in the coming years.

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I hear tell half a million were stocked in there this year.

yea I agree the loss of vegetation hurts the entire fishery. Who is the major player for this movement? Homeowners can't spray public water bodies. I wonder if it's a SCEG thing were it clogs up there turbines. Seems they should have to mitigate the loss of habitat with some hard structure dumped into the lakes.

So according to the DNR website the have consistently stocked striper into Murray around 1 million fish since 1990, so for the last 25 years the population hasn't changed a whole lot. So if you are seeing the decline about 10 years ago there are probably other factors. when did perch start showing up? There have been some minor up and downs and fish kills that knocked back some of the bigger striper in the summers. I don't think invasive is the right term because they are native to the Saluda before the dam, but there is little to no natural reproduction in the lake.

In my experience crappie populations are boom or bust probably related to ideal spring spawning conditions, whether it be low flows it keep siltation down or maybe it's high water to allow the fry to get up into structure. we have a 20 acre pond and about every 5 years they have a tremendous spawn then it's next to nothing.

Also in 2008 black crappie were stocked into Murray so voice your concerns to DNR and your legislatures if you want changes. Crappie fishing is the second most popular fish targeted(behind largemouth) in SC so they will listen.

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Originally Posted by bioguy

yea I agree the loss of vegetation hurts the entire fishery. Who is the major player for this movement? Homeowners can't spray public water bodies. I wonder if it's a SCEG thing were it clogs up there turbines. Seems they should have to mitigate the loss of habitat with some hard structure dumped into the lakes.

So according to the DNR website the have consistently stocked striper into Murray around 1 million fish since 1990, so for the last 25 years the population hasn't changed a whole lot. So if you are seeing the decline about 10 years ago there are probably other factors. when did perch start showing up? There have been some minor up and downs and fish kills that knocked back some of the bigger striper in the summers. I don't think invasive is the right term because they are native to the Saluda before the dam, but there is little to no natural reproduction in the lake.

In my experience crappie populations are boom or bust probably related to ideal spring spawning conditions, whether it be low flows it keep siltation down or maybe it's high water to allow the fry to get up into structure. we have a 20 acre pond and about every 5 years they have a tremendous spawn then it's next to nothing.

Also in 2008 black crappie were stocked into Murray so voice your concerns to DNR and your legislatures if you want changes. Crappie fishing is the second most popular fish targeted(behind largemouth) in SC so they will listen.

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I'm not sure who is actually behind the grass movement. I believe it's driven by property owners not wanting the grass around their docks and I also believe they drive the high water no winter drawdown movement.

I'm using the last 10 years as a snapshot because before that I don't have as much first hand knowledge and that's about the time when the lake levels were brought back up from the dam construction. I also started crappie fishing more exclusively about 12 years ago.

Our place is up the Little Saluda River and when I was younger the water was down most every winter to the point that there was just a river run in front of our place. This gave ample time for shoreline grass to grow and kept all the willow trees and other shoreline cover alive from year to year. Since the big drawdown from the dam work there's only be one short term drawdown about 2 years ago. Fishing in general was booming when they first brought the water levels back up from the dam work. Crappie, bass, striper, catfish, bream...all species were plentiful and were easily caught for the first 3-4 years. Somewhere in that same time frame was when the grass around the banks was sprayed. I'm not certain who did the spraying but I remember seeing a boat with a sprayer pass our dock and the grass was dead in days. There were also a lot of fingerling fish killed in the process. Not sure what chemical was used, but it was potent.

From that point on I believe there was an upswing in striper up river and a down swing in crappie. Bass are still around, but don't seem to be as plentiful. Might be their patterns have drastically changed and I don't really know what I'm talking about too. Catfish seem to be thriving as well and I know that's got to hurt the crappie population. Perch have been in the lake as far back as I can remember and my dad talks about catching 100s of them 35 years ago. And catching white bass which have vanished.

I have been fishing Lake Wylie since the 50's, Wateree, Santee, and Murray since the early 70's. I have posted this before. I used to fish with Don Drose at Santee several times a year back in the 70's and 80's. He was, in my opinion, the best guide on the Santee lakes. According to Don, the White Perch were netted in the backwaters of the Chesapeake and brought to Santee by Virginia fishermen who used them for catfish bait. 35-40 years ago, you could sit on the humps in Wyboo Creek with a six hook rig and a piece of worm and catch them five at a time. Don actually called them Virginia Perch. We would catch a bait tank full and fill the cooler with catfish using the 3-4 inch perch for bait. At this time there were no perch in Wylie or Wateree for sure. I didn't fish Murray enough back then to know if they were there or not. We used to fish Ceder Creek in the spring and catch our limit of White Bass any time we wanted. The perch showed up in Wateree in the late 70's and early 80's and in a few short years the White Bass disappeared. I haven't caught a White Bass in Wateree in 15 years. The perch showed up in Wylie right after that and the White Bass disappeared and Crappie fishing went downhill from there. The only conclusion that I can come up with, after sitting in a boat for many hours talking to folks like Rango and several other old fishermen, is that the White Perch invasion is responsible for the loss of the White Bass and the decline in Crappie fishing. The perch are so aggressive that I have caught many of them on a shad or herring that was bigger than the perch. They feed on the eggs from the White Bass and Crappie and also eat most of the Striper fry that are stocked into the lakes. The fishermen who brought them to our lakes did not do us any favors for sure. They are here to stay, so fry them up golden brown and eat as many as you can.

I think that Thumper is closer to right than anything else that been said... Why else would the DNR or state lift the limits on White perch and make them a none game fish if they weren't part of the problem... I say it ought to be against the LAW to release one alive back into the water we don't for sure no matter the size (of the White perch).

One Opinion I'd put forth also is we keep to many Larger crappie we all like to catch and keep our limits of 1 3/4lbs to 2 lbs plus crappie that's the best class of egg laying females we have.

ONE GOOD USE I'VE FOUND FOR WHITE PERCH IS DOG FOOD MY LAB AND BEAGLE LOVE THEM!!!!

White perch are the number one factor of fish numbers going down. They eat all the eggs, bream, shellcracker, crappie, white bass, large and small mouth bass, even gar, and carp. They don't eat catfish eggs yet, but give them a few more year then they will have to eat them, for all other fish will be gone. Just my two cents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thumper you may be right on someone bringing them to Santee but DNR introduced them to most lakes in the 60's when they put the blue and flathead cats in most of all the rivers in South Carolina.

I have talked with a lot of the DNR folks over the years, mostly arguing with them about stocking stripers in Lake Wylie. Wylie is the only major impoundment in SC, NC, and Va that is not stocked by the respective states. I lived five miles from Wylie for 65 years and we wanted them stocked there also. SC and NC dnr's hated each other so bad, they could not get together to share the cost of stocking. There is not even a reciprocal fishing lic. for Wylie. These folks also told me that White Perch were an invasive species and that they were never stocked by the SC DNR. I certainly hope they weren't stocked. It has been known for a hundred years that these fish are bad for our lakes.

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Originally Posted by R00tyT00ty309

Thumper you may be right on someone bringing them to Santee but DNR introduced them to most lakes in the 60's when they put the blue and flathead cats in most of all the rivers in South Carolina.

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I got a hard time believing this statement. Why would DNR stock white perch into reservoirs? And flatheads?

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Originally Posted by Thumper1

I have been fishing Lake Wylie since the 50's, Wateree, Santee, and Murray since the early 70's. I have posted this before. I used to fish with Don Drose at Santee several times a year back in the 70's and 80's. He was, in my opinion, the best guide on the Santee lakes. According to Don, the White Perch were netted in the backwaters of the Chesapeake and brought to Santee by Virginia fishermen who used them for catfish bait. 35-40 years ago, you could sit on the humps in Wyboo Creek with a six hook rig and a piece of worm and catch them five at a time. Don actually called them Virginia Perch. We would catch a bait tank full and fill the cooler with catfish using the 3-4 inch perch for bait. At this time there were no perch in Wylie or Wateree for sure. I didn't fish Murray enough back then to know if they were there or not. We used to fish Ceder Creek in the spring and catch our limit of White Bass any time we wanted. The perch showed up in Wateree in the late 70's and early 80's and in a few short years the White Bass disappeared. I haven't caught a White Bass in Wateree in 15 years. The perch showed up in Wylie right after that and the White Bass disappeared and Crappie fishing went downhill from there. The only conclusion that I can come up with, after sitting in a boat for many hours talking to folks like Rango and several other old fishermen, is that the White Perch invasion is responsible for the loss of the White Bass and the decline in Crappie fishing. The perch are so aggressive that I have caught many of them on a shad or herring that was bigger than the perch. They feed on the eggs from the White Bass and Crappie and also eat most of the Striper fry that are stocked into the lakes. The fishermen who brought them to our lakes did not do us any favors for sure. They are here to stay, so fry them up golden brown and eat as many as you can.

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I think you are spot on. Have also heard about guys bringing in perch as bait. The commercial fishermen would use them on trot lines and such.

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Originally Posted by bioguy

I got a hard time believing this statement. Why would DNR stock white perch into reservoirs? And flatheads?

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The DNR spokesman we have questioned on this deny that DNR ever stocked White Perch in SC lakes, but considering the negative impact the perch have had, DNR probably would not admit it if they did. I sure wouldn't.

Ray, our DNR sometimes doesn't do smart things. I remember years ago they stocked either blues or flatheads (senior moment, I can't remember) in the Pee Dee and the Edisto. They promptly ate up all of the Redbreast Bream and made a whole bunch of people fighting mad.

I know about the Edisto. A dear friend, now departed, loved to fish the Edisto for Redbreast. I went a few times with him. Loved catching those pretty fish out of that dark water.

This is an interesting thread with a lot of good discussion. I just wanted to add that I have also read that the blueback herring can deplete native species because they will eat eggs, unlike the shad. This is one of the reason that many lakes do not allow them to be used for bait there. I read of one lake in Alabama where a guide was arrested for using herring as bait. I fish mostly Clarks Hill now and the fishing is definitely different from what I grew up doing with the herring and the perch.

White perch and herring. Perch compete with crappie for food their entire life. Really there's no competition. Herring compete with crappie for food when the crappie are small. Both will eat small crappie fry I'm sure. Striper eat a few and so will largemouth, but not enough to hurt the population. States that don't have herring won't allow them. Dead or alive. Not even frozen. Tennessee and Kentucky will burn you up for having them. Herring are a surprisingly visous predator for their small size. They eat lots of fry. Santee lakes and the savannah lakes also have hickory shad in them. To catch them I've always used minnows or small spoons. Since the hickory shad are native I don't really think they will hurt the population too much. I'm going with herring and perch.

I don't know about the politics or the science...

1 ) what I do know is you cannot drag a monkey milk jig with a blue jig head without a 18" striper causing a genuine cluster of your lines..

2) judging from most striper boats there's money in that game..

3) it insults my meager intellect to say a few fisherman used perch as bait back in the day and that caused every body of water to be flooded with the little buggers..

4) the DNR did in fact stock flatheads in the edisto river, then claimed ignorance and refused to do anything to control them...

Info: White perch usually lay their eggs in the evening or after it rains. Each female can lay between 20,000 and 200,000 eggs. The eggs stick together in a clump and may also stick to the bottom. The parents then leave and do not take care of the eggs.
Crappie: Females lay 5,000 to 30,000 eggs.The males guard these nests until the fry swim away. Big difference.

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Originally Posted by MidHillbilly

This is an interesting thread with a lot of good discussion. I just wanted to add that I have also read that the blueback herring can deplete native species because they will eat eggs, unlike the shad. This is one of the reason that many lakes do not allow them to be used for bait there. I read of one lake in Alabama where a guide was arrested for using herring as bait. I fish mostly Clarks Hill now and the fishing is definitely different from what I grew up doing with the herring and the perch.

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I did not know that about the herring. I'm old, but not too old to learn. Thanks for sharing that information.

Greenwood is a lake that's always thrived. It's got tons of shad for forage. There are bait stores with herring for sale on greenwood now. I'm worried there will be a growth in herring and decline in gizzard shad. Herring were stocked specifically for stripers to eat during the summer. They need similar water temps. I've been checked in Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky.