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If the weather is dry enough this summer,I will be building a new pond.It will be aprox 2 acres,and 12' deep.when It is ready for stocking,Im not sure which direction to go.I will be stocking some kind of panfish ( no hybrids ),but I'm tossed between perch,crappie,some sort of gill,and some channel cat.Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Bass, bluegill and catfish make a good threesome.
Bass, bluegill and channel cat are fine. Pond is too small for crappie. They will overpopulate very quickly. No flathead catfish. They'll eat or kill everything else in the pond.
Channel cats have some significant drawbacks such that many pond consultants these days, myself included, advise pond owners to think twice before stocking them. The two main issues they bring are that they are extremely prone to becoming hook-shy, moreso than any other freshwater species; generally once they have been hooked once, they don't get hooked again, even on live or cut bait. The other issue is that they greatly relish pelleted fish food, and will hog it to the detriment of other species you may be trying to feed, such as bluegill. These two issues together create a double-whammy in ponds that have had channel cats a few years and in which the fish are also fed: they get up to eight or ten or twelve pounds, a size at which each fish can eat an astounding number of pellets in one feeding, and they won't bite your hook because you hooked them when they weighed two pounds, so they eat up most of the feed and keep it from your other fish but you can't catch them so they're essentially just wrecking any sort of management you try to effect on the pond. They also take a lot of forage away from the bass when they get past two or three pounds.
I would recommend bluegill and bass.
I have no problem with not stocking crappie,but perch appeals to me.As far as cats,I prefer them over bass,but I understand some of what your saying,what if I castrate the cats :biggrin.As far as gills,should I stock a variety,or try to keep it pure as much as nature permits?
When I stocked our pond I was told to stock with small mouth bass, three types of gills & yellow perch. The pond had a few large mouth in it (from friends that thought I wanted what they caught in the area lake). The place we bought our fish from told us to remove large mouth when they reached 14" or the will eat all our gills. We feed them twice a day with hi pro food and those gills grow fast. I guess it's up to you what kinda fishing you want to do, we wanted a big bluegill pond for the kids and me of course
If by variety of bluegill you mean pure-strain and hybrid, stocking both will ruin the genetics of both. Hybrid bluegill are only good genetically for the initial stockers; after that they're subject to outbreeding depression, which means their offspring have inferior growth potential. I would recommend against hybrid bluegill. If on the other hand you meant bluegill and redear, it's good to stock both of those species.
Also, if you want big bluegill, stock a high number of largemouth, 200 per acre, and don't keep any at all, ever. Stock 500 bluegill and 200 bass per acre, and only keep bluegill between 7.5" or 8" and 9", and release the smaller and larger ones. Don't keep more than 50 or so bluegill per acre per year. Feed a high-protein, fishmeal-based food such as Purina Aquamax or Zeigler, ideally twice a day from an automatic feeder. Will the pond be in West Virginia?
Yes the pond will be in WV.I would not stock hybrids,as far as gills go,to my understanding there is a few varieties,would stocking only red ear or bluegill be preferred?.Also,in most creek or river habitat we have green sunfish,I believe I read they are 1/2 the equation for producing a hybrid.i believe a hybrid is the cross of male bluegill,and female green sunfish.
Seems highly possible that hybrids could make a natural entrance into a pond,it would be difficult to prevent.
Yes, a combination of bluegill and redear would be the best route. Generally you stock 80% bluegill/20% redear, such as 400 bluegill and 100 redear per acre. You're correct in that hybrid bluegill are a cross between a male bluegill and female green sunfish. You shouldn't have to worry about them entering your pond on their own unless the pond is fed by or flows into a creek or river. Green sunfish are known for getting into ponds on their own but it's almost always the case that it happens via a high-water event and also involves a nearby creek or river. And, even if you have a creek or river nearby, as long as you stock your pond as soon as it has enough water to support fish, generally when it's 1/2 full, the stocker fish, particularly the bass, will minimize the likelihood of a smaller wild species such as green sunfish establishing by preying on them when they enter the pond. Bass and bluegill grow rapidly in a new pond that is properly stocked, and as long as you don't have a flood that allows fish from a river etc. to enter right after the stocking, your stocker fish will be big enough within a few months to make it very unlikely that green sunfish could ever establish in the pond.
Zetts is a good hatchery in your state that has been around a long time and has good fish. They have selectively bred their bluegill for many years; I know of a pond owner in your state who got his bluegill from them and claims to have caught bluegill from his pond up to 13". They would be a good choice for stocking your pond. Stock bluegill, redear, fathead minnows, and largemouth; if you want big bluegill, stock the bass at the same time you do the bluegill and redear.
Let me know if you need a fish feeder or aeration.
Thanks for the info,I will not have to worry about flooding,so refugee fish are not a problem.I do have a small pond currently where I intend to expand.The cat tails are causing me some concern though,I have dealt with them manually,but I may be loosing the battle.
I have some experience stocking ponds for myself and others and have witnessed the results over the past 20 years. I am not concerned at all about the first two issues. First, I have not experienced the level of hook-shyness that you describe out of channel cats. Out of my own ponds, I have caught the same distinctive fish repeatedly, and never experienced a number of big cats that couldn't be caught. Rather the opposite. I would protect the larger cats because most were easy to fish out.Quote:
Originally Posted by tnpondmanager
Secondly, the feed is a matter of cost. If you feed the fish enough there will be plenty for all catfish and bluegill to have their fill. That is simply a matter of adjusting the volume. Yes, they can eat a lot of feed, but if you want them to grow, as I do, then you want them to eat. If you don't want catfish for the sake of catching them, then by all means, don't stock them.
The last thing you mentioned is by far the most important for my purposes: The catfish will take quality forage away from bass. If you are managing for a balanced pond rather than just for trophy bluegill, then you want your bass to grow well also. Catfish will certainly compete heavily with bass for forage, and this needs to be kept in mind when stocking. For this reason, I recommend going light on the number of catfish. But for the average pond owner, catfish provides a fishing opportunity for larger fish that are good table fare with a fast growth rate.
I will be stocking more catfish in my pond this month.
I didn't recommend against catfish out of limited experience; the negatives I described are phenomenons I have personally witnessed dozens of times over twenty-eight years of pond management, and which have also been witnessed many times by many other pond professionals. I can name pond consultants from Nebraska to West Virginia to Indiana to Georgia to Texas that have witnessed the phenomenon, for instance, of catfish becoming hook-shy; there was even a presentation on the tendency of catfish to become hook-shy at a pond management conference held earlier this month at the Hilton Dallas. So, there is scientific research that corroborates my observation.
As to the idea that it's just a matter of feeding more: here again, my experience is that it just doesn't work that way. Large channels of ten-plus pounds not only hog the food, but they will aggressively intimidate bluegill away from the food by slapping their tails, rolling, etc. while they are eating. And they don't just eat for five minutes and then leave the rest to the bluegill; I have seen them follow drifting pellets for half an hour and more. If one is utilizing an automatic feeder to get the feed to the fish - which is far and away more effective than hand feeding for growing trophy bluegill since they need to be fed multiple times a day for optimum growth - you can't feed enough to feed a handful of large channels all they want and still get a proper amount of food to the bluegill, because you'd have to set the timer to throw for thirty seconds and you'd go through $500 worth of feed in a month.
I only mentioned the fact that channels take away forage from bass as an afterthought. Certainly there are more pond owners who are interested in big bass than there are those interested in growing trophy bluegill; but since the original question didn't mention bass, and panfish were mentioned as a primary interest, I tailored my advice to the growing of large panfish. If bass are not a primary interest, worrying about their growth is the surest way to limit the growth of one's bluegill.
I didn't say that you did, I was simply giving a different perspective from someone who has managed several ponds over a long period of time and was NOT managing for trophy bluegill alone. Sure, if trophy bluegill are your only consideration, which seems to be the case (for you), then catfish might be a bad idea. If rather, as most people, you want to manage for a balanced pond with multiple species that provides good fishing for all, then they are a positive, IMO. I don't dispute that catfish will consume a good portion of the feed, but if you want catfish in your pond, then you want them to grow and you want them to eat. The idea that bluegill won't feed or won't grow with catfish feeding among them couldn't be more contrary to what I've witnessed. If they are intimidated, they sure don't show it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tnpondmanager
Again, I was just going on the specifics of what was asked in the original question, and subsequent posts by the pond owner. Trophy bluegill are by no means the only thing I manage for; a couple years ago a 56-acre lake I was managing gave up thirteen largemouth between four and nine pounds in two half-days of fishing by two anglers, including six bass that were over seven pounds each. This was the third year that I had managed it; the largest bass that had come from the lake prior to my management, according to the owner, was six pounds; so I know a little about trophy bass.
I only addressed my questions in the direction of a trophy-bluegill pond because the question was posted, after all, in the section of the forum devoted to bluegill fishing, and this information, combined with the poster's specific question, led me to believe he was more interested in big bluegill than he was bass. I recommended against channel catfish because I have personally witnessed, many times, the behavior I described, and many other pond consultants have witnessed the same, to the point that they recommend against channel cats as a rule to pond owners unless catfish are the primary interest of the pond owner.
You may have a little different notion of what constitutes good bluegill growth, than I do:
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That's the kind of gill I want in my pond, 3/4 acre, 8' deep, I think I'll start catching me some catfish
Consider stocking with Fathead minnows one year ahead of your other fish to build up a forage base.
Fatheads and bluegill would be stocked a year ahead of the bass if the goal were trophy bass and the pond were located in the Deep South. Bluegill are the foundation of the food chain in a trophy-bass pond, so that year makes a big difference in the bass not over-eating their food supply. However, fathead minnows do not avoid bass predation well and typically are eliminated from a pond within a few months of the bass being stocked, regardless of how long the minnows were in there beforehand. Fatheads are stocked because they get the bluegill and bass off to a good start growth-wise, not because they can provide a long-term forage base.
Also, West Virginia is getting into the climate region where it is more commonly recommended to stock the bass at the same time as the bluegill. Bass grow more slowly in cooler climates, and if it takes the first bass fingerlings two years to get to a size where they can efficiently prey on the average-sized bluegill in the pond, the bluegill will by then have overpopulated the pond. In far northern states such as Michigan it is recommended to stock the bass a few or several months before the bluegill.
If big bluegill are the goal for the pond, the bass should be stocked at the same time as the bluegill and minnows.
WOW,them are some big ol gills there!!
Thanks, Huskerwill! They're bigger now...
Thanks guys,sorry I haven't chimed back in for a few days,our recent snow storm took out our electric for 5 days.I stated my goal is a trophy bluegill pond ( non hybrid ) in the original thread.I was considering catfish in place of bass for overpopulation control of the gills,plus the fact,I enjoy a tasty platter of catfish about as much a panfish.I will take all info into consideration,knowing I will need something to keep the gills in control.
Hey Yaker, glad you're back to the modern world - I don't imagine five days without power was a lot of fun. Definitely if your primary goal is big bluegill, think twice or four times about the channel cats. They definitely won't control bluegill numbers - never once have I seen them do so. And, as previously alluded to, they will cause major problems a couple years down the road in terms of getting food to the bluegill. Stocking a very high number of largemouth per acre is as important as anything else you do for a trophy-bluegill pond - the bass numbers will make or break it. I surveyed an eight-acre pond last fall that turned up two 10" bluegill in the survey, and this is a pond that had had no management in twenty-plus years...and we sampled more largemouth than we did bluegill, which is why the bluegill were as big as they were.