Lake Management discussion and questions??

We all remember seeing pictures of HUGE fish from back in the day....My Grandfather had old black and white pics of his Daddy with HUGE Walleye, Pike, Musky, Crappie, Bass etc...they were strung up 30 deep, whole drying racks of HUGE fish. I'm lucky to find a fish Ohio fish in a year...all of the New Fish Records seem to be coming from Managed areas, Private lakes, ponds, etc, but still nothing in quantities like the old days...have we become poor conservationists??

So what are the reasons behind mandated Creel and Size limits??
Is poor water quality, algae blooms, etc, lowering fish spawns, fry and fish survival???
Invasive species??
Is it because of Modern Electronics is allowing everyone to find available fish??
Too many Commercial Fishermen??
Too many fishermen attracting fish to small areas and continually over fishing the areas 24/7/365??
Poor Catch and Release Techniques, wrong gear??
Poaching..."gotta get mine" mentality??
Are we all doing our part to maintain the fishery...or is it a lost cause??

I'm curious because of my home lake...2400+ acres...I don't know if we have done enough, or can do enough to sustain it!

Asian Carp ruined mine!

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Originally Posted by rebranger

Asian Carp ruined mine!

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So your fishing hole was destroyed by Invasives! Is the State or local fishermen trying to do anything or did they just give up?

Do you know how Silver Carp destroy an ecosystem??

Asian Carp (AC), bighead, silver, etc. are filter feeders. They eat plankton which is the "Mother's Milk" for the game fish (Bass, Crappie, Bream) fry, thus the survival rate of the newly hatched fry is reduced. When aquatic vegetation is reduced, Oxygen levels go down & turbidity (cloudiness, murky) increases cuttin down on light penetration, thus reducing vegetation even more.
No, the State Wildlife agencies here in the South are doing very little, except give lip service. There was a massive kill on the Tunica Cutoff several years back & after several attempts (they needed live ones, they'd die on the way) carp were rushed to the lab at Stoneville, Ms in hopes of IDing the organism that killed them. Maybe one day they can replicate that "natural" control. But for now, about the only solution is harvesting them with nets &/or electro shocking. There's a plant at Sunflower, Ms that buys them for $0.09 a pound for fish meal / fertilizer. Another new / old plant in Indianola, Ms called New Moon Foods is supposed to be opening up soon & will export them to China for human consumption. The plant in Illinois had to shut down because of odor complaints! For now, that's about the only means we have of even making a dent in them, much less controlling. The Ky Wildlife Agency had a AC tournament on Ky Lake & harvested 82,000 pounds! Think the winner had 20,000 pounds! We need to have more of these tourneys! It's just a matter of time before they get into Pickwick, Wheeler, Guntersville, etc. Same goes for the Great Lakes.

rebranger

I'm real curious about this, which lake was it? How good was the fishing before and how bad is I now? The reason I ask is I am considering buying a home on Lake Barkley which now has Asian carp and this has been a concern of mine about the future. Thanks

All our "Oxbow" lakes that are fed / flooded by the Miss River have suffered severely. On the Tunica Cutoff or Tunica Lake, 20 - 30 years ago the crappie fishing was fantastic! was common place to catch a 100 per man between 6 & 10 AM. I have seen guys bring in several coolers full! Nowadays you'd be lucky to catch 20!! 10 legal size is about the average, day in day out, 2 -3 hrs of fishing. Only good thing is there are no more pleasure boaters, jet skis, water skiers, etc. Too dangerous. Jumping carp have badly injured many folks.
There's a company called Aqua Services, I think Bill Dance owns part. They may have an up to date inventory / fish survey or perhaps your State Agencies (which may be outdated / old due to budgets) I'd check with them. Wildlife biologists with hands on experience, i.e., running nets are scarce. Many have "desk or book" knowledge, but little field, practical experience.
Because Barkley is further north (temps lower, water clarity better) it may not be affected as badly as the more Southern Lakes, but our sport / game fishing here around Memphis, Tn has been decimated. They (the AC) don't seem to have affected Ky Lake as bad as they have our lakes.

Thanks for your input I appreciate it. That is so awful what they have done to you local fishing. I sure hope that one day they come up with a solution. Hopefully with the different temperatures and the size of te water it will never get that bad here in Kentucky. I wonder why they don't try shocking them and scooping them up? I guess it would be far to expensive with the man hours and equipment it would require to make a real dent in the population.

Thanks again

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Originally Posted by INTIMIDATOR

We all remember seeing pictures of HUGE fish from back in the day....My Grandfather had old black and white pics of his Daddy with HUGE Walleye, Pike, Musky, Crappie, Bass etc...they were strung up 30 deep, whole drying racks of HUGE fish. I'm lucky to find a fish Ohio fish in a year...all of the New Fish Records seem to be coming from Managed areas, Private lakes, ponds, etc, but still nothing in quantities like the old days...have we become poor conservationists??

So what are the reasons behind mandated Creel and Size limits??
Is poor water quality, algae blooms, etc, lowering fish spawns, fry and fish survival???
Invasive species??
Is it because of Modern Electronics is allowing everyone to find available fish??
Too many Commercial Fishermen??
Too many fishermen attracting fish to small areas and continually over fishing the areas 24/7/365??
Poor Catch and Release Techniques, wrong gear??
Poaching..."gotta get mine" mentality??
Are we all doing our part to maintain the fishery...or is it a lost cause??

I'm curious because of my home lake...2400+ acres...I don't know if we have done enough, or can do enough to sustain it!

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In general I would think it has to be a combination of things like fishing pressure and pollution is some areas. The sport of fishing is a lot more popular now then when some of those real old photos were taken. Plus as you mentioned the improvement of equipment as well increases the pressure. But I don't know if it is a failure of conservation as much as increase in population, popularity, and equipment. I think for the most part the agencies tasked with conservation do a fine job with the obstacles facing them.

Here in Alabama we have a great fish and game program most of are lakes are in good shape. I hope we never have these problems. some of our lakes get a lot of pressure but there are plenty of fish to be had. I would like to know that we can do to keep it that way.

There's a good web site forum called Pond Management. You may can find some pertinent info there.
As for Asian Carp, Illinois and Australia have done a lot of work on them.
I think the next World Crisis / Shortage will be protein, not oil, not gold. The Chinese and folks in 3rd world countries poor are starving for protein.
Wouldn't it be great if we could develop an economical way to utilize this nuisance fish & make it a resource??
If you clean them properly they are pretty tasty! You know carp fishing is a big sport in Europe!

They oughta erect some of the barriers like they are using on the canal going in to Lake Michigan, because once they get in, they're going to explode! I don't think there are enough commercial fishermen left to make a dent in them!
Yes we are blessed to have good management, but forewarned is forearmed. Pro active or prevention is best!

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Originally Posted by rebranger

They oughta erect some of the barriers like they are using on the canal going in to Lake Michigan, because once they get in, they're going to explode! I don't think there are enough commercial fishermen left to make a dent in them!
Yes we are blessed to have good management, but forewarned is forearmed. Pro active or prevention is best!

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Rebranger
VERY NICE explanation of Asian Carp and how they destroy a fishery!
They have found Asian Carp DNA in Lake Erie, they don't know how bad it is yet...they have found Asian Carp in the tributaries and in the Ohio River also, so they have been making a steady move North.

I can remember a few years back when they were first found in the Mississippi...the States and Government had a chance to poison something like a 26 mile stretch of the river, that held mostly cats and something else, and stop the advance before it really got started...they couldn't decide and did not do anything, and here we are!

Right now, Lake Erie is booming...Smallmouth, Walleye, and other fish have never been bigger...look at some recent Smallmouth pictures, they look like overfed Largemouth...this is all due to the goby...this little invasive fish, is a slow moving, breeding machine, that is a easy package of high protein...the bad news is that it eats fish eggs and the entire bottom of the live food chain....so the problem that is going to hit soon, is that even though fish are getting huge, their numbers are slowly dwindling....and the goby keeps expanding along with the rusty craw that has wiped out all the natural craws, and the zebra mussels and others that are taking care of the microscopic food chain.

We have Snakeheads and Peacock Bass, and all other kinds of invasives, destroying the natural species and balance of fisheries in many States...what in the name of heaven have we done???
You're right, maybe commercial fishing the invasives will be the money maker for the future.

I told our story before, about what happened one year when we gave out some of the GPS locations of the cover we put in our lake, we tried to be nice and help people also...we figured it would benefit kids, elderly, and those who were disabled...I have never seen such a sad display of human behavior for other people who took the cover over, didn't allow the people it was put out for to use it, and destroyed the cover and fished it clean...the boat guys were just as bad, they anchored on the cover 24/7...it was eye opening and disgraceful, and we never made that mistake again!

At our lake, we have problems with illegal catches and a "Poor" State that cannot seem to enforce laws or even Patrol...at the Crappie Spawn, you have thousands of people actually fighting each other for spots in the Marina or other easy access points....people take a many 5-7 inch Crappie as they can get...I call the rangers on them all the time and take pictures, nothing...others idiots use Bream hooks that are so small they are swallowed and gut hook Crappie, Bass, etc, and people just rip it out and throw the fish back...I call the Rangers, nothing!....I watched a 20 year old kid one day catching small Crappie, he was throwing them back kinda hard...after a while I moved from my location on the bank and went past him...he had over 100 dead Crappie floating by him...he was smashing them on the rocks...I called the cops and amazingly he was arrested! People throw whatever species of fish, they don't like, on the bank to die...Rangers do nothing!
We watch people picnic on the banks...families of 10-20 people...they get done and just leave all the trash on the ground...I call the cops, nothing...I call the Rangers, nothing! So we spend an entire weekend picking up trash at the lake...the next week it looks like we never did anything!
People contacted the State because they feel it is unfair that we put in cover for the lake, and did not tell anyone where it was located, they want GPS locations so they can fish it!
I'll be honest and tell you that ALOT of people that fish at our lake "have left a bad taste in my mouth"!
But yet, we all continue to pick up trash, put in cover, and do the right things!

Now most of our lakes in Ohio are Blooming because of the nutrient loads...they smell like crap mixed with rotten eggs, you can't swim, drink the water in certain cities, fish, boat etc...luckily our lake is deep and flushes well, so it hasn't bloomed YET!
I wonder how much longer we have before things improve!:)

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Originally Posted by lowe175

Here in Alabama we have a great fish and game program most of are lakes are in good shape. I hope we never have these problems. some of our lakes get a lot of pressure but there are plenty of fish to be had. I would like to know that we can do to keep it that way.

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You cannot allow the lakes to "age"...you have to keep adding all kinds of cover...shallow breeding cover for fry, like laydown Christmas Trees, brush blocks, pallets, etc...then you need dense stand up cover, etc, in deeper water for smaller fish...and then larger cover for the Slabs...cover can be long lasting, wood, or other natural. They can all be mixed together, or grouped together...you have to also keep "Good" vegetation in the lake...then you let Mother Nature, do her thing!

We make cover every spring and place them deep and shallow.i thank God we don't have the same problems. Most people here do the right thing.I have run into some bad eggs on the water but not often but I have 4 big lakes and lots of small water sheds less than a hour away. We have a problem with over population in the small water sheds I try to get people to go fish these lakes but some of them you have to have a 4×4 to get to but that's a joke compared to the problems that you are facing.

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Originally Posted by INTIMIDATOR

Rebranger
VERY NICE explanation of Asian Carp and how they destroy a fishery!
They have found Asian Carp DNA in Lake Erie, they don't know how bad it is yet...they have found Asian Carp in the tributaries and in the Ohio River also, so they have been making a steady move North.

I can remember a few years back when they were first found in the Mississippi...the States and Government had a chance to poison something like a 26 mile stretch of the river, that held mostly cats and something else, and stop the advance before it really got started...they couldn't decide and did not do anything, and here we are!

Right now, Lake Erie is booming...Smallmouth, Walleye, and other fish have never been bigger...look at some recent Smallmouth pictures, they look like overfed Largemouth...this is all due to the goby...this little invasive fish, is a slow moving, breeding machine, that is a easy package of high protein...the bad news is that it eats fish eggs and the entire bottom of the live food chain....so the problem that is going to hit soon, is that even though fish are getting huge, their numbers are slowly dwindling....and the goby keeps expanding along with the rusty craw that has wiped out all the natural craws, and the zebra mussels and others that are taking care of the microscopic food chain.

We have Snakeheads and Peacock Bass, and all other kinds of invasives, destroying the natural species and balance of fisheries in many States...what in the name of heaven have we done???
You're right, maybe commercial fishing the invasives will be the money maker for the future.

I told our story before, about what happened one year when we gave out some of the GPS locations of the cover we put in our lake, we tried to be nice and help people also...we figured it would benefit kids, elderly, and those who were disabled...I have never seen such a sad display of human behavior for other people who took the cover over, didn't allow the people it was put out for to use it, and destroyed the cover and fished it clean...the boat guys were just as bad, they anchored on the cover 24/7...it was eye opening and disgraceful, and we never made that mistake again!

At our lake, we have problems with illegal catches and a "Poor" State that cannot seem to enforce laws or even Patrol...at the Crappie Spawn, you have thousands of people actually fighting each other for spots in the Marina or other easy access points....people take a many 5-7 inch Crappie as they can get...I call the rangers on them all the time and take pictures, nothing...others idiots use Bream hooks that are so small they are swallowed and gut hook Crappie, Bass, etc, and people just rip it out and throw the fish back...I call the Rangers, nothing!....I watched a 20 year old kid one day catching small Crappie, he was throwing them back kinda hard...after a while I moved from my location on the bank and went past him...he had over 100 dead Crappie floating by him...he was smashing them on the rocks...I called the cops and amazingly he was arrested! People throw whatever species of fish, they don't like, on the bank to die...Rangers do nothing!
We watch people picnic on the banks...families of 10-20 people...they get done and just leave all the trash on the ground...I call the cops, nothing...I call the Rangers, nothing! So we spend an entire weekend picking up trash at the lake...the next week it looks like we never did anything!
People contacted the State because they feel it is unfair that we put in cover for the lake, and did not tell anyone where it was located, they want GPS locations so they can fish it!
I'll be honest and tell you that ALOT of people that fish at our lake "have left a bad taste in my mouth"!
But yet, we all continue to pick up trash, put in cover, and do the right things!

Now most of our lakes in Ohio are Blooming because of the nutrient loads...they smell like crap mixed with rotten eggs, you can't swim, drink the water in certain cities, fish, boat etc...luckily our lake is deep and flushes well, so it hasn't bloomed YET!
I wonder how much longer we have before things improve!:)

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Excellent!:hesaid

The most ironic thing about silver and big head carp is in many blind taste tests over 90% of people say they are far and away better and tastier than tuna...but they won`t buy it because of the `carp` part of the name...

So what are some of the things you guys do at your lakes???
What kind of conservation, inforcement, etc, does your State do???
How well is your lake managed???
And how is the Crappie population and fishing??

These are some small things we can do. 1. Clean you boat before you go to a new lake to prevent invasive plans and fish. 2. Don't keep more fish than you need. 3.Pick up trash. 4.Place cover if you are a loud in you waters.5. Go vote so you can get things changed. 6. Take a kid fishing and show them how to be a reasonable outdoorsman. Feel free to add to that

The Corp and MDC work together to manage Pomme De Terre here in Missouri. The MDC puts out a large number of cedars most years in late February or early March. The Corp raises the water level 2' in mid April and holds this level or higher depending on rain, till sometime in June before they lower the lake to normal pool. This floods the willows and brush along the banks and provides the fry a chance to escape predators and feed on the insects, algae etc. Add in all the brush and beds us locals place and the standing timber and there is something for the fish at any age.

Do keep in mind though that all is dependant upon projected and actual run off as to water levels in almost all Corps of Engineers flood control impoundments. That IS their main reason for existing...it would be NICE if they were even a little more concerned with fisheries in their waters, but they put flood control #1, #2, #3 > to #25...admittedly though will give them credit that at least at CJ Brown, they were more than willing to allow us to place attractors within their reasonable restrictions. They infact asked us to continue for a further 2 yrs...we gladly placed over 90 more attractors where they specifically asked us to.

We've got a new issue right now, zebra mussels. They are dropping the water level on Pomme in a attempt to kill off the zebra mussels that came in with a dock from another lake. I think the goal is to freeze them over the next few weeks.

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Originally Posted by pomme guy

The Corp and MDC work together to manage Pomme De Terre here in Missouri. The MDC puts out a large number of cedars most years in late February or early March. The Corp raises the water level 2' in mid April and holds this level or higher depending on rain, till sometime in June before they lower the lake to normal pool. This floods the willows and brush along the banks and provides the fry a chance to escape predators and feed on the insects, algae etc. Add in all the brush and beds us locals place and the standing timber and there is something for the fish at any age.

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That would be fantastic! Go Missouri!

Our Army COE will not even consider doing that on our lake...they continue to follow outdated "Rules Of Engagement"....Our ODNR is broke and cannot add cover, etc. They can't even electroshock yearly...our lake gets checked every 5 yrs.
If our ARMY COE just raised the lake level to normal pool early, they would allow the White Bass, Walleye, etc to go up into the creeks to spawn....they won't budge.
With better forecasting, etc, they should be able to modify 1950's rules of flood control...but that would be like using "common sense"....and we can't do that! :):):)lol

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Originally Posted by pomme guy

We've got a new issue right now, zebra mussels. They are dropping the water level on Pomme in a attempt to kill off the zebra mussels that came in with a dock from another lake. I think the goal is to freeze them over the next few weeks.

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You will notice with the mussels that the water will really get clear because they filter everything, along with that, they spread like fire, and clog up water intakes, etc...biologists really do not know what to expect LONG TERM, too many conflicting reports!

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Originally Posted by INTIMIDATOR

So what are some of the things you guys do at your lakes???
What kind of conservation, inforcement, etc, does your State do???
How well is your lake managed???
And how is the Crappie population and fishing??

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Well my wife and I placed a couple of fish habitats last week. I learned it would be easier to place 1 at a time because we had a hard time moving around in the boat with 10 of my poor mans habitat in the boat at one time. We ask the ranger out at the lake again to make sure it was alright. They don't care as long as they are not creating any safety hazards for skiers and boaters. We very seldom see game wardens any more they are so few in the counties now from state cut backs and they are checking hunters mostly. Like around in the spring they have there hands full with turkey hunting so people seldom are checked fishing this time of year. The rangers at our lake keep it well clean and the grass cut. They are also working on a skeleton crew, and a lot of things that need replacing is starting to go down. The problem is that some people vandalise and tear things up. My wife and I went out to the lake today and a handicap bar that we had bolted down to the pier to help people like my wife and I get in and out of the boat on to the dock. Someone had tried to tear it off, so we were their the good part of the morning replacing the 4 inch bolts that I had put in it from the last time they had tried as this is not the first time. There is always a few bad apples that hurt others. The last time that they(MDWFP) shocked our lake they said that we had a good amount of fish. I asked the rangers when they would start replacing the water as it is in draw down mode now and they told us that they didn't know and that that comes from higher up(probably people that don't know nothing about fish and fishing) Well the water is going to have to be raised before we can place any shallow habitat. We also have trouble with the pond moss at our lake and was told that it is because of it being shallow in a lot of places. I can't wait till it gets warmer and we can get back to fishing this year. Hope everyone has a good safe fishing year.

Kudos sir ! You might like the `fruits` of your labors for more than a few years...enjoy them with your family ! 1 admitted advantage with "BB"s is though somewhat unwieldy, they can be carefully set 4-5 blocks tall in a stack on each bow of a pontoon and rapidly unloaded in a string set mostly shallow followed by 4-6 "C" trees and a PVC/ HARD wood attractor at about 16- 18 fow as the anchor. Our average thermocline mid to late summer is 15-19 fow at summer pool...This has been the most productive type `set` that have experienced and heard of, for most anything at least seasonally for a variety of fish.

I was reading on Zebra mussels and found out the the Quagga mussel ( another invasive ) was crowding out the Zebra mussels. They are worse, higher population density per given area and can live at deeper depths . Looks like from bad to worse.

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Originally Posted by DockShootinJack

I was reading on Zebra mussels and found out the the Quagga mussel ( another invasive ) was crowding out the Zebra mussels. They are worse, higher population density per given area and can live at deeper depths . Looks like from bad to worse.

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It's funny...some State's really care about their fisheries, they add cover, Patrol, have boat cleaning stations, tries to do something about invasives, etc, etc, etc....Ohio likes to make sure our Politicians, etc, are well fed and paid, and that we have so many social programs, no one will ever want to work and pay taxes....they don't think investment in Water is a good thing until they get thirsty or the whole State smells like rotten eggs! :)lol

OH-

I can attest to the taste of the carp. Had a fish fry with bass, crappie, and carp, and nobody knew they were eating carp until after the meal when we told them!

I heard the boys down in Florida are starting to eat a lot of Snakehead also...maybe that's a way to control them....but I think the bad thing is that all the invasives out reproduce all of the Natural species, and that is an even larger problem?????

I don't know that the invasives "out reproduce" native species, but I do know that here they have no predators to keep them in check. State agencies at one time would try to introduce predators to control these new species, but that turned out to as bad, or worse than the original problem.

Vic
You're right, they do not have natural predators here...they also out reproduce natural species which makes it worse...a snakehead can spawn 5 times a year, 15,000 little top level predators each time...Big Asians can lay a million eggs...I hope they find a way to turn the tide without making it worse....to me, this is very sad!

I feel like we, as fishermen/women, are in a pretty bad spot in regard to invasive species. There will always be some guy whose dad and grand-dad always went down to the river and tossed a net for minnows so they could go to the lake and catch crappies for the big fish fry. That guy still thinks it's okay to net his bait and when he's done catching crappie, he tosses his unused minnows into the lake to "help" the crappies get bigger. He and his buddies laugh at all the minnows jumping right up out of the bucket.....

Or how about a pet shop owner? Just trying to make a living, right? Those snakeheads probably sold really well....don't worry about what happens when they get too big for an aquarium and the owner wants to get rid of them. We, as fisherfolk, are in a bad spot because, as a wise man said: you can't fix stupid.

Zebra mussels got here and got established before anyone realized what was happening. If they can be spotted early in the infestation, they can be killed with chemicals. Hopefully, this treatment will work at Pomme de Terre Lake. But there is no way for any state DNR to stop all this. There just isn't enough money.

So what might happen in affected lakes? I can see maybe some attempts to control carp by increasing minimum length limits.....all predators will eat smaller fish. If the conservation dept thinks they can keep the carp population down by predation, then raising the length limits to keep the predators in the system longer might be the answer they try.Possibly native or hybrid predators, such as tiger muskies can be stocked to eventually prey on some of the larger carp, of course they eat any large fish, so say goodbye to some really nice crappies and walleyes, too.

This post has gotten out of hand....I apologize....could have gone on too! My hope is that some scientist will come up with a way to treat the invasive species only. Without introducing some disease, or parasite. Maybe they can control it like the do mosquitoes in some areas. They release sterile males to breed with females. Or they introduce something that stops the larvae from getting fully developed.

Still can't fix stupid, tho