Requesting feedback for ESB R & D

The subtitle for this thread should be "Why it's getting so hard to buy American".

A number of Crappie.com members (not as many as I'd like, but we're working on that :)) use my bobbers. Even if you don't, I'd like your feedback on a problem I'm having.

I have always prided myself on sourcing American. All of the components of the ESB are made in the USA, except the glass bead, which is Japanese. I just wasn't able to find a good American source for glass beads. Anyway, the brass grommet in the distal end of the ESB has always been made by a US company that claims to be the largest eyelet maker in the world. On 2 occasions I have purchased large quantities of a specific brass eyelet from them. They now tell me that my eyelet is no longer a stock item and, if I want them, I have to pay for a production run of half a million at considerable cost.

It turns out that they have a good quantity of another, more common, eyelet that will work size wise. This eyelet, however, is made of aluminum alloy. Assuming that the alloy has a hardness comparable with the brass I'm using now (or I won't use it), here are the questions. What would be your preferred material? Which metal would corrode less in salt water?

And here's another thing. A trip through Alibaba has shown me that Chinese companies will line up to sell me brass eyelets. I don't want to but I may not have a choice.

All opinions are welcome, and thanks.

Man I don't know and would have to research that some. I souls think the alloy in the aluminum would make a big difference depending on what it is, but I have no proof of anything about this issue. Maybe I would ask them if this aluminum with alloy will hold up as well as brass in saltwater, lay it back on them to help you decide. They should have guys that work for them and specialize in metallurgy or at least I would think that??

Skip

I buy and use your bobbers. Excellent product. I fish freshwater and do not have any issues with the metal change. As long as it does not corrode or ruin my line (braid and mono) I am happy with it.
Sorry for all your issues. Hope this will not make the prices go up.

Thanks, kickingback, I wasn't considering a price increase this year.

I to use your product, I say stick with what works, If that means a cost increase for a good reliable product then so be it.

That's my feelings

I think Ford just come out with the aluminum alloy pickup 2015 said it should get lot better gas mpg as the aluminum alloy suppose to be as hard as steel if so I think it should work for you. But check in too it.

Copper is a component element in speciality alloys for use in saltwater. Brass is mostly copper. Make certain your offshore supplier is providing solid brass, not brass-plated. I suggest avoiding aluminum for this application.

UPDATE.

First, thanks to everyone who's viewed, and double to those who have replied. Special thanks to Badgerloader, that's the kind of hard data I need.

My research of the past few days has convinced me that aluminum is not a suitable material for my bobbers. It has a frictional coefficient twice as high (it's not as slippery) as brass. I think it would be even worse once the inevitable coating of aluminum oxide forms. So, brass it is and brass it will stay.

This has never been about me raising prices. The per piece cost of my bobbers is not high, I have more than enough profit margin built in. It's about my American supplier deciding that I need to special order a part they've always sold me before, a part that they have listed in their catalog right now. I designed around it, for crying out loud. The only piece that I have any real control over is the tube, because extruded plastics can be made to fit anything, cheaply. So my tubes are custom made to fit my glass beads, bobber bodies, and brass grommets all at the same time. At my current production levels, they want me to buy a fifty year supply of brass eyelets, at a cost of nearly a year's profit!

So, as I said, brass it is. I have already obtained a quote from a Chinese company (for a quantity of 100K) that is about 1/4 what the American company would charge, if they would actually sell me 100k. I just have to get a couple more answers from them (like copper to zinc ratio, Badgerloader), and I'll be ready to go.

So, a couple more questions.

1) Given what I've related above, does anyone have a problem with me outsourcing to China? Free market and all that considered?
2) Or, should I contact the American company, tell them what I'm going to do, and give them another chance to sell me 100k? This may sound crazy, but I would probably pay far more just to say I bought American.

Again, thanks for the feedback. Also, I hope that this has been enlightening for anyone else thinking of bringing a product to market.

There are likely other sources outside of China - India comes to mind. I sent a PM to you.

I would let them know you plan on switching to another manufacturer that is willing to give you a smaller minimum quantity. The only reason a company would give up business is if it is going to cost them money. Also if they actually are discontinuing the item see if you can purchase all of their back-stock at a discounted price.

#1 I don't like the fact that we buy from China, but reality is not much of anything we buy today in the fishing industry is not at least partly made in China. Most anything else is also. Just a fact of life today that we live in a world wide economy.

# 2 I would certainly give them a shot. I for one wouldn't mind paying a little more for American made. I really do not understand their ( all American manufactures ) attitude. They lose you then which product in their catalog is next? Before you know it they are out of business.

Personally, I don't care if it is made in China, Korea, Ethiopia, or the Phillipeans.

I applaud you in your effort to try and make an "all American" product. One of the few people in America that do. Remember that American made cars, manufacture parts outside of the country. They still say "American Made" because it is assembled in America.

I've fought for my country and the flag that it stands for. I have over 20 years working for my country. That said, I tend to buy the "best" product on the market. If it happens to be built in Russia, Germany, or Asscrackastan, so be it. A pickup truck costs 40 grand (the cost of my first house), because people work on Assembly lines and think they are entitled to getting a 3 dollar an hour raise if they have to turn one extra bolt. China jumps in on the competition to offer an "alternative" to a product you currently use but no longer have access to in the quantities you want. I have no issue with that.

I live and work in the car capital of America, I see it all the time. Engine parts built in Tiwain go on an engine block built in America, by Cubans that came to America by way of Mexico! Made in America my friend!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ESBguy

UPDATE.

First, thanks to everyone who's viewed, and double to those who have replied. Special thanks to Badgerloader, that's the kind of hard data I need.

My research of the past few days has convinced me that aluminum is not a suitable material for my bobbers. It has a frictional coefficient twice as high (it's not as slippery) as brass. I think it would be even worse once the inevitable coating of aluminum oxide forms. So, brass it is and brass it will stay.

This has never been about me raising prices. The per piece cost of my bobbers is not high, I have more than enough profit margin built in. It's about my American supplier deciding that I need to special order a part they've always sold me before, a part that they have listed in their catalog right now. I designed around it, for crying out loud. The only piece that I have any real control over is the tube, because extruded plastics can be made to fit anything, cheaply. So my tubes are custom made to fit my glass beads, bobber bodies, and brass grommets all at the same time. At my current production levels, they want me to buy a fifty year supply of brass eyelets, at a cost of nearly a year's profit!

So, as I said, brass it is. I have already obtained a quote from a Chinese company (for a quantity of 100K) that is about 1/4 what the American company would charge, if they would actually sell me 100k. I just have to get a couple more answers from them (like copper to zinc ratio, Badgerloader), and I'll be ready to go.

So, a couple more questions.

1) Given what I've related above, does anyone have a problem with me outsourcing to China? Free market and all that considered?
2) Or, should I contact the American company, tell them what I'm going to do, and give them another chance to sell me 100k? This may sound crazy, but I would probably pay far more just to say I bought American.

Again, thanks for the feedback. Also, I hope that this has been enlightening for anyone else thinking of bringing a product to market.

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I have bought a few things from China and am always amazed at the shipping cost and how low it is. I have had no complaints about their products I have bought which are not many, but I did buy some Alabama Rigs from over there a few years ago to test that market and got them super cheap and sold them for way under what others on the internet sold them for. I only did a small amount too and could have even got them for less if I wanted to buy more. I just didn't want to mess with it. There are a couple other things I bought from China and again amazed at shipping cost. Normally I do not buy from China and even my tying supplies China is end supplier for some of the stuff like Hackle, but really good hackle like Fly tying quality comes form America where they are raised and sold of tiers.

Any more it's had not to buy something from China. All Roadrunner heads are made in China or Haiti or some other place like that. I even get a differ quality from one over the other, LOL! It is what it is!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ESBguy

Given what I've related above, does anyone have a problem with me outsourcing to China?

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I’d estimate that at least 90% of the crappie tackle sold in the US is made in China. So, I think you could outsource your entire operation to China and nobody would care.

You tried, that is more than most can say. If an American company will not make it for you at the quantity that you need then thats all you can do, go elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fliesforall

I would let them know you plan on switching to another manufacturer that is willing to give you a smaller minimum quantity. The only reason a company would give up business is if it is going to cost them money. Also if they actually are discontinuing the item see if you can purchase all of their back-stock at a discounted price.

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Great info here. This is what I would do first.

Do what you think is right and serves your customers best ... That being said I too would pay a little more for American made parts but will still and buy your product either way. I am just glad you even care enough to ask and put the cards on the table! Cudos to you!!!

Who ever can make the product the best and the cheapest is the best way to go. Let the U.S. company know they are losing a customer and see if they will work with you. If not, oh well. You tried. It's your business and you have to survive. That's the way of business. I support small businesses. With that said, if you had to raise prices I would still buy from you. These are great bobbers that last! Best bang for the buck in the long run in my opinion. I would pay $2.50 a bobber if need be without any problems. Just to let you know.

I would try contacting a local screw machine company and see if they would be interested in making them for you. Keep it US and keep it local. You can pretty much have them made out of anything but I would consider naval bronze if you are wanting salt water compatibility.

UPDATE.

Yesterday, I sent this message to the American company:

"Good morning.

I'm going to ask you again to sell me 100,000 A1811 brass eyelets. They do, after all, have a Federal purchase number.

If you refuse, I'm prepared to purchase from a company in China.

I will await your reply, but not long."

I received this reply:

"
Based on the minimum amount of metal we must order to furnish A1811, minimum production quantity will be 500,000 pieces. We are unable to quote you on 100,000 pieces of A1811 brass. Please advise if you would like a quotation on 500,000 pieces.




Also, see spec sheets of A2470 flat flange eyelet, and GS44 rolled flange eyelet attached. The posts are .007" smaller than that of A1811 and the flange if A2470 is .011" larger.


A2470 brass - 100,000 pieces @ $9.20/1000. Over 1 million pieces in stock subject to prior sale and an order may ship within 2-3 business days.
GS44 brass - 100,000 pieces @ $7.46/1000. Goods also in stock subject to prior sale.


Samples are also available at your request."

Unfortunately, the eyelets they reference are too small in diameter to be used in ESBs. The quantity of 1/2 million is, as I said, out of the question. I've ordered samples from the Chinese company for testing.

Once again, thanks for reading, I'll keep you posted.

The end of the story.

The samples arrived from the Chinese company (Juwang Metals), and they are absolutely perfect! I order 100,000. That's when the fun begins.

First, the rep ("Peter Chen") says I can't pay with Paypal, even though that's how I paid the mold change fee and shipping for the samples. I have to pay by bank transfer. I do a little research and find out that this is actually common with Chinese companies. He provides me with the bank info, which is to a bank in Malaysia, under an account name that makes no mention of Juwang Metals. I'm uneasy about this, but I'm getting low on eyelets, and, as I said, they sent me perfect custom made eyelets - those don't just fall out of your ears. I find out that my bank charges a hefty fee for international transfers, but I do it anyway.

As soon as my payment clears, "Peter" (whose name has morphed into "Peter Chan", along with a new email address) starts badgering me about a "production overrun" of 15,000, and would I please buy it because it will hurt his company if I don't. I do a little math and say, "sure, as long as I can use Paypal", because the bank transfer fee will be more than the cost of the product. He then delivers me a quote that is 20% higher than the cost of 100,000! This frosts me, and I tell him to forget it, just deliver what I paid for. He keeps on harassing me, saying that he really meant 150,000 (that's a huge overrun on an order of 100,000), until I start responding to all of his emails with "No. Deliver what I paid for.". In one of his last emails, he says my product has shipped and he will provide a tracking number "soon". That tracking number never shows up.

In the meantime, the American company has had a change of heart and will now quote for a minimum of 250,000. That quote is for $5,135.00 and needs 8 to 10 weeks lead time. Over .02 each. All of their quotes for other eyelets are less than .01 each.

About 10 days after "Peter"'s last email, I am emailed by "William He" of Juwang Metals. He says "Peter" has quit the company, and would I like to complete my order by paying for it! I tell him I already DID pay for it, and send him copies of "Peter"'s emails. He says they never received payment and that "Peter"'s email account got hacked.

I file a complaint against Juwang Metals with Alibaba and provide all of my correspondence with them as evidence. They decide against me, saying that the transaction was controlled by a third party.

Desperation sets in. By this time, I have less than a month's supply of eyelets. I decide to pay Juwang again - they did, after all deliver me perfect eyelets. On 4/7 (which, by the way, would have been the shipping date under the original agreement) "William" notifies me of shipment and provides me a tracking number. On 4/9, a box of perfect eyelets shows up at my house.

So, I got taken, but I'm not sure by who. Would I have gotten the eyelets without the extra payment? Happily, even paying double, the cost is less than .01 each. And, my company survives. But, as of 4/23/15, ESBs no longer contain US made eyelets.

Once again, thanks for reading and commenting. I hope this has been helpful to other Crappie.com entrepreneurs.

I'd say #1 would bother you for a long time

#2 - Talk to someone way higher in the company and TELL THEM!! you already list the part in your catalouge - you've sold it to me in the past at X $, and I've been a good customer. Take it all the way up to the owner, can't believe they want to turn business away.

I'd get a spec sheet on the grommet you use and check with a few companies here in the US - just messing around I did a search on "brass grommet eyelets - made in USA" and they list some - https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+-+made+in+USA

I have one question for you though - could you use a second glass bead in place of the grommet???

Sounds like it can get messy dealing with them. I only had a couple dealing with them and the main one was some Alabama rigs that I sold for cheap and still did pretty good, but didn't do it again as I am more into crappie now and these seemed that bass would have been better for the size. There was a few I bough on line that would be better for crappie. But they cost too much and not from China, well at least I didn't get them from China, LOL!

all I know is that company would have to give me someone to deal with that they guarantee what he does from this point on!

goos luck,

Skip