Battle of the HF Down Sonars

Lowrance StructureScan LSS-1 / HDS9 LSS-2 /Garmin GCV10 / Humminbird ONIX


We often embellish memories of past technology when new and better equipment gets released to the public. For this reason I decided to put the old original Lowrance LSS-1 (StructureScan) up against the latest gear Garmin, Humminbird and Lowrance have in the mid-range sonar market just to see how we have advanced.


I have followed the exact course and speed for each unit to keep it fair.


Here is the original StructureScan LSS-1 - DownScan
http://www.fishtec.co.za/lss1_01.jpg




StructureScanHD LSS-2 (HDS9T)
http://www.fishtec.co.za/lss2_01.jpg




Garmin 721xs / GCV10 DownVu
http://www.fishtec.co.za/garmin009.jpg




Humminbird ONIX8 SI
http://www.fishtec.co.za/onix002.jpg


http://www.fishtec.co.za/onix003.jpg




We look forward to testing the Raymarine DownVision soon ...

Fishton ...can you explain a little about what factors are creating the difference in the horizontal resolution scroll history of equal and identical boat tracks with the different units...??

Rickie

Hey, Mate ....

Couple of observations :

When scanning depths ... 800 kHz definitely rocks when it comes to image clarity, regardless of unit mfg. I like it so much, I tend to use it all the time ... even in depths of 10-20'.

Based on size of each image ... LSS-1 would be my choice. Given equal size to all images, I would likely choose the same. I definitely prefer the blue/night palette over the red, and use it almost exclusively on my Lowrance Elite 5 DSI ... even during the day.

All things considered, and if pricing were equal among all four units ... and considering image detail ... I don't see a whole lot of difference in the quality of information being shown.

I do find the Garmin image a little hard to look at for any length of time. And the Onix images look a little dull/washed out, colorwise. May be the palette color presentations of these two units, or it may be that I'm more used to the Lowrance blue. :dono

... cp :kewl

Where the fish? It's a trick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent
The Garmin s strength is in its amazing side scan clarity and range, and detailed 2d.
No HB 998? in the contest? It claims to have good down scan.

Fishton, could you post a picture of all three brands transducers,side by side? Also, does the Garmin have a separate 2nd transducer, like the lowrance?

anyway to have all of the pics the same size for maybe a better comparison ??

Thanks for the images Fishton, there is a reason I've held on to my LSS-1. It appears (to my eyes) that 800khz shows better detail of the bottom and 455khz shows more detail of the standing timber on all three units. Anyone else notice that? On the Onyx images I wonder what's going on in the 25-30' range?

Interesting comparison for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimp

anyway to have all of the pics the same size for maybe a better comparison ??

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Fishton is not only showing image quality differences ... He is showing the difference in horizontal resolution of the exact same boat track with each pass...

He set up a defined course and distance and then scanned the exact track at the same boat speed..with each unit and frequency setting....

The differences in the horizontal resolutions seen are factors of how each unit operates and renders the data into the image...

I'm hoping he will explain those factors ...

(It seems to me all the units are "compressing" the data into the image ...except for the LSS 1)...

Rickie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brettw

No HB 998? in the contest? It claims to have good down scan.

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HB core SI units do not have a dedicated "Down pointing" piezo....

Different technology altogether ...

Rickie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rnvinc

Fishton is not only showing image quality differences ... He is showing the difference in horizontal resolution of the exact same boat track with each pass...

He set up a defined course and distance and then scanned the exact track at the same boat speed..with each unit and frequency setting....

The differences in the horizontal resolutions seen are factors of how each unit operates and renders the data into the image...

I'm hoping he will explain those factors ...

(It seems to me all the units are "compressing" the data into the image ...except for the LSS 1)...

Rickie

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Rickie, on a Lowrance unit, there is a way to change what's being compressed and viewed.ive seen a thread some were were fish ton showed two di shots of the same structure.one being compressed, similar to the lss-2 shot and the other similar to the lss-1 that he's showing in this thread.i think that I saw this on bbcboards, on the Lowrance side.
I guess that it's possible that this can't be done, using the lsss-2?
It's been awhile back, but I'll try to find the thread and post the link if I find it.

By the way, am I the only guy that thinks 455 kHz is better than 800?
In every way? Seems to always be better on Hds 9

You will get a wider coverage area, with 455khz.on did and si

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brettw

By the way, am I the only guy that thinks 455 kHz is better than 800?
In every way? Seems to always be better on Hds 9

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You might be, Brett :Rofl

Here's what I see on a split screen 455/800:

Attachment 176288

I'll take the 800 kHz image, any day of the week !!

(FYI ... this image was taken a long time ago, before I was really dialed in on how to get better images. These images are of a rock bottom on a rocky ledge bank, and was done simply for my own purpose of learning the unit and how to take screenshots. There was no particular cover or fish being looked for, when the image was taken. It was done solely for comparison of the images from 455 & 800 kHz)

... cp :kewl

Hey, Fishton thanks for posting the above comparison screen shots, Its great to see the different brands side by side of same subject, especially by somebody who knows what they are doing.

John, when will book #2 be out. I have thoroughly enjoyed book #1.

Thanks for the image comparison.

I'm special ordering crappy.com decals with "455khz is best " on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brettw

I'm special ordering crappy.com decals with "455khz is best " on it.

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On the unit that I'm using, I prefer 800 kHz if we're just wanting to pick out the fish in and around the structure because with the 800 kHz the fish show up brighter and sharper.on the other hand 455 kHz does a lot better of showing the structure , but fish kind of have a dulled look, that blends in with the structure.for me, finding the structure is most important (but that's getting into the next battle so I'll stop):angel:

Thanks for all the great replies chaps, and sorry for taking so long to reply.

Rickie -
Horizontal Resolution - HR
The thing that changes this resolution is Scroll Speed - the slower the scroll the lower the HR, the faster the scroll the higher the HR. Common sense tells me it should be the other way round, but it is what it is.
1. On the LSS-1 the scroll speed has always been pretty close to your typical trolling speed on a dead idle, meaning that if you idle over a round tyre it would look like a round tyre, not a oblong shape. Sure, if you increased your boat speed, then the tyre would also look oblong.
2. With LSS-2 (box) and HDS Touch the scroll speed is very slow in comparison. There is no scroll speed adjustment for the Lowrance, but there are a few things that do effect it:-
a. If the unit has too many waypoints and the memory has not been purged the unit slows down, resulting in a slow scroll speed.
b. You can increase or decrease DownScan scroll speed by changing the SideScan range - less it goes faster and more it goes slower.
c. Changing the traditional sonar frequency from 83kHz to 200kHz will also speed it up.
3. As far as the ONIX goes - I forgot that it has a chart speed setting, and I should have turned it down to look like this -
That in the 25-30ft range is a thermocline.

Cane Pole - see if you can spot the good fish (tip - they are just in the thermocline)
http://www.fishtec.co.za/onix005.jpg

CrappiePappy -
Only my second time out with the ONIX proved that I was a bit rusty on the Bird settings, I should have set it a little 'hotter'. Having said that, I do like the StructureScan brightness and contrast, it really pops with little to no settings required.

brettw -
Yes, the Garmin GCV10 SideVú range is just something out of this world, I just hope they will incorporate it into something like Lowrance has done with StructureMap.
The traditional 2D CHIRP sonar on the new 'x' units is also a work of art, and works very well straight out the box, no matter how high you set the gain - Best affordable CHIRP sonar quality right now in my opinion.

kosmo -
I don't have a photo of the ONIX transducer in this shot, but on the day of the test a swapped it out with the TM150.
Yes, the Garmin requires both (GCV10 and TM150)
http://www.fishtec.co.za/transducer2.jpg

jimp -
I have kept the same vertical size to keep the resolution fair, but the LSS-1 I had to stitch together because it was wider than a single screenshot.

Don G -
The new Fisherman's Guide to Sonar will only be available 2015 now as I have decided to widen the scope of readers by including all the big brands, not only Lowrance.

brettw -
I also only use 455kHz on my Touch / LSS-2 and Garmin GCV10 for both Side and Down.
For The Humminbird and LSS-1 I prefer the 800kHz for Down and 455kHz for Side.

a. "If the unit has too many waypoints and the memory has not been purged the unit slows down, resulting in a slow scroll speed."

On a Touch how many waypoints are to many?

3." As far as the ONIX goes - I forgot that it has a chart speed setting, and I should have turned it down to look like this -
That in the 25-30ft range is a thermocline."

I saw that in the first image but didn't realize it was the thermocline. Strange that it's clearer than the water above or below it.

Thanks for the detailed reply. :ThumbsUp

a. The unit can take 5000, but that's not the problem, it's how concentrated the waypoints are. Read this blog entry ... High Tech Fishing with John Easton

Remember, a thermocline is simply a rapid change in temperature, sometimes it's a light band (most times), and sometimes in spring (we are southern hemisphere) it is the other way round.

:cheers2

Really some good general comparison shots and thanks for taking the time to do the testing. It seems like there are some minor differences (pros & cons) in all the various units. All eyeballs are not created equal...LOL But just curious if chart speed would be the same for all units assuming they have the setting available? Are the screen sizes, pixels, and screen construction similar in each of these units?

Looks like a sea horse. ...or a dog with wings..http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/z...psc5vbky4a.jpg

kosmo you have one vivid imagination bud :Rofl

Good read fishton, thanks for the time spent for sure :ThumbsUp

Kosmo are sure that isn't a gargoyle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justinp61

Kosmo are sure that isn't a gargoyle.

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Now that you mentioned it, yea....:Rofl looks like a gargoyle

These are the fish that I think fish ton referred to in his last http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps6fmrrsqb.jpg

OK,
a little help here,
(I'm prepared for a significant amount of ribbing on this)
BUT.....
I've got a complete, barely use , perfect Garmin unit with the 150 tm and I'm not using it at all. I've opted to keep my HDS 9, and it was a tough call and I may be making a mistake.
Anyway, I'll well sell the whole Garmin setup, 2 transducers, GVC 10 black box, Garmin 840 xs for 1800. I think I paid 2300 but cant remember just now, so either way, I'm taking it in the shorts. PM me if interested. It's all in perfect condition, or heck maybe I'll sell the the HDS 9????

OR, can a person use both of these to a huge advantage on the same boat?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brettw

OK,
a little help here,
(I'm prepared for a significant amount of ribbing on this)
BUT.....
I've got a complete, barely use , perfect Garmin unit with the 150 tm and I'm not using it at all. I've opted to keep my HDS 9, and it was a tough call and I may be making a mistake.
Anyway, I'll well sell the whole Garmin setup, 2 transducers, GVC 10 black box, Garmin 840 xs for 1800. I think I paid 2300 but cant remember just now, so either way, I'm taking it in the shorts. PM me if interested. It's all in perfect condition, or heck maybe I'll sell the the HDS 9????

OR, can a person use both of these to a huge advantage on the same boat?

---

Trade the GCV 10 off for a Sonar Hub ...

Then CHIRP the TM150 thru Sonar Hub to the HDS 9 ... and Structure Scan your existing LSS 2 to the HDS 9 ...

(I'm not sure if the HDS 9 will display CHIRP and SS at the same time...but I think it will because Sonar Hub has 1 sounder for the CHIRP transmit ... And the HDS 9 has built in Structure Scan sounder for SS transmit)...

And keep the Garmin for full screen maps ...

Rickie

Spot on kosmo! :cheers2

What unit is the LSS1 on? 9 touch

Quote:

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Originally Posted by larryb227

What unit is the LSS1 on? 9 touch

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Larry ...is your question for Fishton and his OP (Original Post)...??

I kinda got the thread off topic ...

Rickie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rnvinc

Larry ...is your question for Fishton and his OP (Original Post)...??

I kinda got the thread off topic ...

Rickie

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I guess it would be for Fishton but really anyone who can answer.

I remember something about the scroll speed on a Lowrance increasing and decreasing due to the depth either the DS or SS is set at. For instance if you are viewing 30 on down scan but have the SS (even though you are not viewing it) set on 120 a side the scroll speed with be slower. In this case it is best to set the DS and SS to the same depths.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rnvinc

Trade the GCV 10 off for a Sonar Hub ...



Then CHIRP the TM150 thru Sonar Hub to the HDS 9 ... and Structure Scan your existing LSS 2 to the HDS 9 ...

(I'm not sure if the HDS 9 will display CHIRP and SS at the same time...but I think it will because Sonar Hub has 1 sounder for the CHIRP transmit ... And the HDS 9 has built in Structure Scan sounder for SS transmit)...

And keep the Garmin for full screen maps ...

Rickie

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Anyone seen sonar hub in action

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brettw

Anyone seen sonar hub in action

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Abhor has got lots of pix at THT of the Sonar Hub and TM150 in action ...

You may have to ask him to post them again as many threads as goes thru that Forum ...

Rickie