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I want to find out if it's legal to use PVC in my lake in Alabama. Some guys say yes and some say no but nobody can point to anything in writing. I don't want to ask any local officials because I don't want to bring attention to myself. Is there a website that discusses legality issues and tells what states and waterways within a state are legal for PVC placement?
Check with your game & fish and COE.
Agreed. Likely, it is not that PVC itself is `illegal, it may be the size or length. Generally COE will NOT allow us to place ANYTHING that would be a possible hazard to boats after the fall drawdown. NO metal structure, NO upright posts or trunks that will not `give` or fall over if struck by a boat...this is why taking examples of exactly what you want to place during negotiations can be very `useful`...
Then there should be a COE regulation that discusses what is or is not allowed. Personally, I don't trust anyone in the government to give me a straight answer to any question without showing it to me in black and white. I've asked questions of the FEDS on different issues several times. Sometimes I get an answer that proves to be correct, but too often I get a quick answer that turns out completely wrong. Also, I don't want to ask a question I can't afford to get a "NO" answer to.
What state are you in?
Most of my own experience with both ODNR and COE has been positive...especially after they are seeing the desired `end results` at NO cost and little effort from themselves. Considering that was banished `for life` twice, (once by COE) think our relationship has `improved`...
First of all...2 things...1st, PVC is generally considered INERT by Gov agencies....2nd, if you get caught ILLEGALLY Dumping stuff into a State owned and Army COE managed lake, the least you will get is a trash dumping $500 fine...you can receive Federal Felonies if they so desire, and if a dam is involved, you can have the book thrown at you!
Each lake is different, that's why it has a managing agency...they can tell you where it's safe to place cover, etc...you can't just put cover in areas where skiers are or where DNR nets may be placed, etc. Have a plan to tell them about and why it will benefit the lake and not only you!
I also have had ZERO problems with the Army COE or ODNR fish Biologists concerning dropping cover, ours are "ALL IN" when it comes to allowing us to drop cover, pick up trash, or any other project that benefits the lake.
We have dropped cover since 2008 and have put in a few thousand pieces with the blessing of our agencies!
Many years ago I talked to a game warden who was a family friend. I didn't ask about PVC or plastic but he said concrete blocks, trees,bamboo or anything biodegradable is OK. No metal or wire. Actually no nylon rope, use cotton rope or twine. I recently found out you cannot put anything in the marked channel. I will follow up later after I talk to warden again. Wheeler is the lake I refer to.
At 1 time we were required to use light steel cable and clamps. The Park Maint guy actually checked them several yrs to ensure there would be no `floaters"...in 7 yrs, exactly 1 block broke apart upon hitting the water; fished it out, put a BIGGER block on it, raced back and made a bigger "splash" than the 1st time. Batting 2,700+ for 2,700+...
which lake?
CJ Brown....Springfield OHIO!Quote:
Originally Posted by alexava
Biodegradeable cover is great but our Army COE and ODNR want all the hardware non-degradeable, so there are no issues with cover breaking loose and damaging boats or the dam.
They prefer weight to be either Concrete blocks or Cement, Cement can be contained in plastic buckets or tubs. Like Lowell said, plastic coated steel cable and stainless clamps are preferred for attachment to cover then blocks.
PVC and Plastic of any type can be used, even thick double walled culvert pipe, clean plastic barrels, or massive plastic pallets. No metal of any kind, or tires/rubber/glass/etc....and of course all the wood, 'boo, and natural stuff you can put in!
All cover locations are OK'd by the COE and DNR and are not given out to the public, they have denied only 1 area we have chosen and asked that cover not be placed deeper than 18 FOW. We have found that with all the budget cutbacks etc, the State and Government agencies are very easy to work with and allow us complete flexibility, for improving the entire fishery....it has actually been a pleasure working with them, at every meeting the head fish DNR Biologist attends, speaks, and answers questions, also someone from the COE and Park do the same.
With the donated man-hours going to COE, and the MANY compliments COE, ODNR and Ohio Dept of Parks has gotten as a result of the past efforts they are actually eager to see the numbers of attractors and fish population in CJ further increase. Most of the cover is used by juvenile fish, but NO fish is 10" long when they hatch. And while perch and crappie free range as fry, the juvenilles of many species of fish use that cover extensively all year long as cover and to find food. This means that predators visit it frequently, also looking for food...with the bonanza of lower life forms that inhabit and eventually consume it they actually significantly "boost" the overall biodiversity of the area they go into. Snails, insect larvae, minnows, aquatic worms, and a smorgas board of bacteria, algae, funguses, all use them. A single set of 5 in the spring can influence an area 5X the attractors` actual volume...strategically littering the lake with dozens and dozens (our most common number in sets) of sites ensures #1: not ALL of them can be fished down at once. It would be almost impossible for ALL of them to be fished even on a busy day. #2: Even though the COE initially insisted we make them `public knowledge" (or NOT be allowed to do this at all), Sir Intimidator almost single handedly successfully convinced the "Powers that Be" to allow us since that point to be able to place them stealthily. The known 1s while reduced by over fishing and age are now largely easy targets, helping to hide the almost unknown newer sets being added, helping to ensure that the newer 1s see little to almost no fishing pressure, and we as a group are GRATEFUL for that ! #3: We have successfully last summer placed our 1st "CC", rubble, block and 10 hole red brick pile we hope will last 50 yrs...the 1st results from it were `significant` ! (Ask Sir Intimidator...) We hope to place at least 2 more of them this summer...#4: We seem to have inspired several spin off groups of like wise minded individuals whom have also approached COE, ODNR and the Ohio Dept of Parks for permission to (within various restrictions ) "splash" their own well planned `projects` in other lakes. If in fact imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, we are grateful that several key persons spoke to the "Powers that Be' within 3 different State and Federal Agencies, some with their own agendas, and gave our volunteer amature privately funded group of "interesting" individuals OFFICIAL permission to place 700 of them into CJ Brown Reservoir 7 yrs ago. Would like to think those "Powers that Be" have not regretted it...have a solid plan, and SHOW them examples of WHAT you want to "splash", what, how many, where,how deep, ect. OBEY their restrictions. The RESULTS will say more than you can imagine...
I'm in Illinois and each lake and each state is different. You need to contact the lake biologist and more often than not they are more than happy to let you put in attractors. I worked last year on a local small lake and had already reaped dividends. Plan to put out more this year. Communication is key. I notify when I am going out. Who will be with me. How many pieces and what I'm putting in. They also have me fill out a "time sheet" that gets submitted. He said if enough work is done it equates to additional grant dollars. As sportsmen you should try to give back a little of what you take.
As have said, COE and other state agencies benefit by submitting your donated man-hours and expenses which draw matching funds toward their local efforts towards habitat enhancement for various types of endangered wild life...in the end it also makes saying "YES !" to well planned out efforts more ATTRACTIVE to them...
As mentioned above, our experience has been on a office to office basis. It all comes down to the people in charge of your area. Personal opinion has been the determining factor up to now and most likely won't change in governnment anytime soon.
The good news is this: as many of us know, PVC works and is safe and accepted all across the US. In the five years I've been involved with this industry, changes in the biologists thinking have shifted towards PVC and it's long lasting effects at a extremely fast rate. This, coupled with the now obvious need our Nation has to improve our waters that have been neglected, have never been more in the news.
All three major PVC habitat companies have come onto market in the last five years. One company sat on the shelves for many years before the three of us filed for patents and began sales. This industry and understanding of the benefits of PVC are still in their infant stages.
We have seen how the older biologists and a "set way" of thinking regarding materials for habitat is being pushed aside by the younger generation of fisheries Professionals. This open minded generation of biologists and lake/pond management companies are striving to utilize more long term and cost effective habitat strategies.
If you run into an agency that gives you a hard time about PVC, send them to me and we have had 100% win rate with convincing them otherwise. Countless agencies and respected professionals are available to support the use of PVC and many are willing to get involved to defend our request. You need not look far to read about huge cash being spent to add PVC habitat, from Florida fish and game to TEXAS, which has always insisted on natural materials, now are installing PVC.
PA is still 100% natural and a leader in the Nation when it comes to habitat restoration. The difference in their work is large scale, large wood, that they have been installing for many years. While all the other states were wathching and talking, PA was kicking butt and saw the problems before it was to late. They have been adding tens of thousands of large units, light years ahead of the rest. Their sytem "ain't broke", so they really have no need to fix it.
First, a sincere thank you for all the replies.
As I review the discussion it appears that most are in agreement that PVC placement legality changes from state to state and from lake to lake within the state. Most seem to feel the answer you get depends on how the state/federal officials are approached. IMO, that most likely means biologists and COE reps are interpreting rules differently or just making them up as they go about their day.
For me, I'm going to keep placing PVC trees anchored with concrete blocks. It will be done at night. It will be out of the navigable river channel and I'm going to tell all my friends where I "found" them.
Hope you all catch loads of fish this spring.
Before dropping any structure, please contact the Controlling Water Authority for each impoundment and double-check it is allowed before doing so. Is it worth the money it could cost you in fines if it is NOT allowed on the water body you wish to sink structure in? And is it worth having such funds diverted from your family which could have been avoided with a few simple phone calls? Sounds to me you are only wanting to do as you wish regardless of the rules or regulations if you are only going to do so at night. Game Wardens and Lake Patrol do their activities at night also just to let you know.
You are going with "Plan `B`" 1st. TRY "Plan `A`" ie talk with the "Powers that Be". IF you have a SOLID plan and agree to honor their restrictions, would bet they LET you. If NOT, there is still always "Plan `B`"...btw, IF you go with "Plan "B", ENSURE you carefully wipe the attractors free of fingerprints 1st...
I spoke with the TWRA (TN) they said as long as it is secured good there is no problem.
Good for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by kilowatt
Just a reminder..If you use PVC in buckets, tubs, etc, and fill them with concrete...just run a couple screws in the bottom of each piece of PVC (not all the way in), before you put them in the 'crete..this will give it some "bite" in the concrete, so it won't pull out.
Also rough up the PVC, before hand, with some 60 grit, to give algae a good grip.
There are a lot of different things you can do with PVC, Plastic, or Milk Crates...plenty of pics on the other threads if you need other ideas...
Good Fishing!
I ask the Rangers at the reservoir every year if it is ok to place habitat, because you never know from one year to the next what rules has changed. So far there has never been a problem. They just want you to be careful not to cause a safety problem for skiers and other boaters.
I looked over the fishing regulations as much as I could. I couldn't find anything printed.
Most states have a biodegradable clause in the regulations as pointed out above.
Attachment 189317Attachment 189318Attachment 189319 The COE,AGFC put these in our lake.
Hey Jackie
Those pieces that your State put in look Great! A Great Example of PVC Buckets...Ohio does not allow Steel Barrels, but those look nice also!
Not saying you State does this, but ours does.....The only issue I have with the States doing these, is if they give out the coordinates...people will fish them 24/7/365 if possible....soon you will see a steep decline in the number of fish on the cover, and then the entire area will be bare for awhile because it is just stripped, people wil complain and complain, until the cover is re-discovered by different fish, but it never will be able to sustain itself like in the very beginning...yes, it gives people something that draws fish and allows them to easily find and catch their limit...but, in our experiences, it causes way more problems than just putting them out and letting people find them on their own...or not at all!
People just seem to take the easy way out, and then take advantage of that easy way!
IMHO, If you put "community" cover out, you should always put something out in a different area, that only benefits the lake, to HELP replenish the fish that are taken!
We figured out early on, that if you increase the fish holding capability of the entire fishery, from the basic food chain all the way up, you will SAFELY increase the fish population of the entire fishery, and they will spread ALL OVER THE LAKE....this allows, all people, to catch fish, and the fishery remains solid and healthy, with no wild population swings...as fish are taken, others move in...things are very Stable this way!