Crappie size limit

I am shure this has been discussed before. I would love to see a size limit put on crappie in Indiana. I cant believe that the dnr does so much for bass fisherman and nothing for us. I want to see a 10inch size limit on crappie............ You guys may not agree with me but the states with size limits have bigger crappie. I would almost bet that a 14 to 15 inch crappie is about as good as you can do on a public lake in Indiana. I would like to see that change. Not everybody fishing our public lakes care about the future of crappie. I do and I want to see a size limit.

I would think it would depend on your fisheries. Here in MS we have a size limit on The Big Four and it helps. But they are COE flood control lakes and we loose more fish to the spillway during winter draw down than we do fisherman. A lake that is fairly stable and doesn't loose a lot of fish to the spillway might over populate. We are on 12 or 11 inch minimum depending on which of these lakes you are on and it helps.

In my opinion Indiana has a short growing season and a shad kill with winter freeze up were the southern states have a growing season alot longer if not year round and plenty of shad to eat due to no winter freeze up not sure it would work here in indiana i havent seen any increase of size on bass im still catching alot of 13 inch bass and have for years but i dont target bass much

Its all about selective harvest... Just because its caught doesn't mean it should be kept.
I would rather see the CO's at each boat ramp checking limits in the months of April and May. I have fished here for 15 years now and have guided for 3 years and not one time have I ever been checked for how many fish are in the livewell.
Over harvest is our biggest problem in this state during the peak spawning time.
If we had CO's checking every now and then I would tend to think it would slow down the poachers.
My 2 cents!

Tom I agree but I have also seen a lot of bank fishermen keep every 7 inch fish they catch I would support more CO checks AND a size limit even if it is just 9 inches

I'm with T D H if the harvest was curtailed at spawn time would help. Like any fish that is a good food source for human use, as soon t hits the length limit it is gone. If the limit is 9in as soon as it is caught and is 9 inches it go to pan. if limit is 10 and hits 10 gone, 11 for 11 gone. People are taking more than the legal bag limit and then the fish are of decent size. In my opinion a 8-9, 10 inch fish is a lot more tasty than a 13-15+ fish. Granted the 15+ fish are more fun to catch but if we keep eating them when they are caught that fish's gene that produces big fish is gone forever. Let them spawn. A small 8-10 inch bass is a lot better eating than an 8pound largemouth and we all know someone who has caught an 8+ pounder and just ate it because they could. But that 8 pound Bass will never produce another 8 pounder ever.

Length limit is fine if it is enforced. I'd rather see a reduction in limit size. Right now you get a pontoon full if people taking their limits.

I catch fish over 15" every year, but that us usually early in the year before the lake is filled with people taking 100 crappie a day.

I always see people with very small crappie. I only take what I need and never take anything under 9 inches. I would love to see a size limit.

Used to throw back every crappie we caught during the spawn. The past three years now we've harvested some. Granted there are people harvesting more than their legal amounts. Seeing the unnoticeable impact of these anglers season after season, led us to begin harvesting some spawn-time crappie. BTW, DNR CO actually caught one angler this spring with one too many crappie on his stringer (CO's are out there & we've been checked too). IMHO, IN DNR does have things pretty well figured out. The fishing is pretty consistent.

Like others posting I'd like to see the average crappie size increase in IN, but... a couple of the things I remind myself are our growing season is shorter & the fish have to be more resilient & hardy than their southern cousins. The age of fish to reach >15" is longer than to the south & the mortality rates of each year are seldom discussed. Typically each year of a fish class their population decreases, so generally there are fewer six year class fish than five year and so on. Maybe what we're seeing is close to what would be natural for IN. It'd be nice to hear more about this from a wildlife biologist.

Crappie are known to be excellent reproducers, so anglers keeping more than their limit during the spawn may have little impact on most impoundments ( maybe small impoundments could be impacted???) This meaning that there will be quality crappie remaining that aren't harvested during the spawn for future angling.

Sure sounds simple enough- just impose a size limit and everyone catches bigger crappie. In theory this may hold some water; before being sold, need to see some real world results- not a study. Are there other neighboring states or some further north that impose crappie size limits? If so, what worked and what didn't, what are the results, and are all contributing factors the same too (like fishing pressure, lake size, seasonal, habitat, etc)?

Being a "keep it simple" advocate, understandably it's hard to keep all things simple and consistent. In this forum we're a leading edge of crappie fishing. Where the majority of recreational fishers aren't as dedicated to the sport as we. What could size limits do to the future of our sport? What about the effects on others? What might happen if a parent takes their children crappie fishing and has to continuously throw all their catch back b/c size limits- could they find satisfaction or enjoyment in this??? Possibly- who knows. My kids understand the importance of conserving the resource (practicing "catch-n-release") and occasionally want to bring some back home to show their mother their catch. Most recreational anglers find enjoyment & pride in opening their livewell or hoisting a nice stringer/fish basket to show their expertise & skill. In short... if IN waters were full of stunted <8" fish, my drum would be beating for change.

My two cents- no change required! (pun intended)

Have a super Wednesday!

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Originally Posted by kwerdal

Tom I agree but I have also seen a lot of bank fishermen keep every 7 inch fish they catch I would support more CO checks AND a size limit even if it is just 9 inches

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and I had a CO tell me and a fishing buddy to keep'em or throw them on the bank as there were too many in the lake. We were fishing Patoka near South Lick Fork 2 years ago.

I don't know where I stand on this one. I wouldn't mind a size limit if it worked, I don't keep them under 9" anyhow.. I don't have enough experience to really know the benefits or downsides. I can honestly say though in all of the fishing i have done over the years I can only think of a couple of times where I have caught my limit of crappie. Maybe i'm naive but i've never seen anybody catch more then their limit, or even heard of anyone doing that. Hopefully their not, but I guess I really don't know. I'm in support of the co's out there checking livewells etc...

Crappies, like other fish need a lot of factors to marry together to have a successful spawn. While you hear that they're prolific spawners, what you don't hear about is the lack of proper spawning habitat. In order for crappies to have a successful spawn they need proper light penetration, cover, temp, oxygen, and protectors of the nest to name a few factors. When you look at Indiana's BOW, we lack in cover/habitat first and foremost, and when boats and bank fishermen pound what very little cover we have for a successful spawn, it's no wonder why we have years like 2013 for large numbers of big fish. When it comes to fish washing over a spillway, that also has to do with lack of cover, because most fish can find the vortex of a piece of structure and hover effortless in place. In my experience, a shad kill doesn't happen often in most reservoirs in Indiana, as they'll blow up my Vexliar all winter long, but the eating size shad do become less prevalent. However, most crappies are filter feeders in their youth, relying on their gills to filter micro organisms, so shad wouldn't effect the younger generation in most cases.
When it comes to regulations and proper catch and release, most people have no clue about what they should and shouldn't do. This summer, during the tournament off season, I told 8 different families I'd take them fishing if they had a youth on the boat and the experience was eye opening. None of them had any idea what was right or wrong... nobody ever told them, and the regulations didn't say anything about selective harvest. With that being said, we're lacking in regulations, education, and habitat in this state, and sadly enough, not many care to make the necessary changes. My plan will remain the same moving forward, take kids fishing, and educate them the best way I know how and hope for the best.

Being a biologist isn't easy, especially when it comes to crappie anglers. One subject that constantly gets brought up is why we don't have a size limit on crappie. Seems like crappie anglers are always wanting bigger and better crappie fishing in their lakes. The simple answer is because it largely wouldn't work on most of our waters. Research and modeling suggest you need a population with good to above average growth combined with low natural mortality and heavy exploitation (people keeping fish) for them to work well. This is the exact criteria that both Ohio and Pennsylvania have adopted for their crappie programs. Indiana biologists have looked at the stats for a lot of our reservoirs, and to the best of my knowledge, only a few bodies of water have been identified that fit the above scenario. For certain, a statewide blanket regulation wouldn't work. Anglers think that you can simply slap a 9" or 10" size limit on a lake full of 6"-8" crappie and in a year or two, all those fish will have grown to 10" - WRONG. In many if not most cases, they'll stunt out and the population will be worse off than when you started.

Back on the original point. Biologists over in Illinois (Rend Lake) came up with a creative idea to improve crappie fishing for larger fish while stabilizing the cyclical nature of the population. They took their existing 25 fish limit and applied a tiered bag limit, such that you could only keep 5 of your 25 crappie >10", and the other 20 had to be <10". They later (2004) revised the over 10" component to 10 > 10", with the remaining 15 having to be under 10". This forced harvest of smaller fish while protecting for overharvest of larger fish. From a recent presentation on the results;

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"The size structure of the crappie population improved noticeably following implementation of the regulation. Data from the fall 2002 trapnet survey showed a sharp rise in the percentage of the crappie population > 10 in and this increase has remained relatively stable for eight years post-implementation. Creel data also showed a dramatic increase in catch rates and harvest of crappie > 10 in."

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Sounds like a win for crappie anglers. Some posters on fishing forums even pointed out that it is, at times, difficult to even get your 15 fish under 10". However, the majority of the posters complained that they didn't like the new tiered system, instead arguing that they would just prefer a simple 25 over 10" limit, which as was already mentioned, won't work on a majority of crappie lakes in our region. Some went so far as to call the regulation "stupid".

It just goes to show that there are many facets involved with setting regulations, not the least of which is angler opinion. In this case, even though the fishery probably wouldn't have improved, and maybe even gotten worse, anglers would rather have a simplified creel limit instead of a specialized regulation. Part of this likely stems from the nature of crappie fishermen, that being primarily a catch and harvest type endeavor. Surveys show that not many edible sized crappie get released by anglers. Unlike bass or muskie fishermen who have a very strong catch and release ethic, crappie anglers, along with bluegill and walleye anglers, are more geared toward harvest. As such, any regulations that negatively impact that ability to harvest are frequently met with criticism. In several instances, this has resulted in crappie size regs in other states having actually been rescinded. While many conservation minded folks follow and post on these boards, they make up but a tiny fraction of all the crappie anglers in the state, the majority of which don't have that same mindset.

-T9

"WRONG. In many if not most cases, they'll stunt out and the population will be worse off than when you started."

http://www.crappie.com/crappie/custo...vatar709_1.gif Team9nine
And that's what the CO told us when he said to toss them out.http://www.crappie.com/crappie/image...er-offline.png

i wouldnt mind a size limit on a few good crappie lakes. maybe a slot would be even better. i dont agree with you tat there arent big crappie in our public lakes though. i have caught or seen caught plenty of 16+" crapys from our public lakes. the lakes that give them up regularly are few though. guess im really on the fence on this one, because my area has great crappie fishing.

"Crappies, like other fish need a lot of factors to marry together to have a successful spawn. While you hear that they're prolific spawners, what you don't hear about is the lack of proper spawning habitat."

HT i agree with you on habitat maybe ISM members and C.C members could create a team that could get with dnr and army corp and create a couple projects a year to add habitat to our fisheries and have a habitat day in late winter have member donate their time labor money ect.. i sure there be more than enough donate one way or another I know i would

You're right, after October 27th let's work on getting a plan together to develop crappie structure with the DNR. PM your contact information, and I'll work with the club to gauge their interest. Hopefully we can get to work during the winter draw down. Anybody else interest in working on stake beds, etc. send me your contact information.

I will work with Jamie Smyth at the DNR and see if we can get a meeting scheduled sometime this winter.
Lets get our ducks in a row and present something great because its gonna be a hard sell.

I don't think a size limit would work. For one, the CO's are spread too thin to enforce the laws we have. We end up policing each other many times when we see a law broken and call it in. Who wants to go up to someone and say we want to measure their fish to make sure they are legal and then call in violations. I don't think there is a magic pill for this issue. I have to admit I have kept 7" and 8" crappie before. I don't fill my cooler with them though. I also release any bass, either smallie or LM. We have to do what we think is right and try to educate the rest as much as we can. How we do that is the tough part. I respect all others views and ideas and hope everyone does likewise.

Thanks T9,

This subject has come up times before in this (IN) forum. Within this thread there are examples & science to support and it's easy to follow (it's well-written). Is there a way our moderator can "sticky" it for posterity?

The Boy Scouts use to make habitat at Missy when they had there Klondike in January. Now you have to have a permit to put any structure in a body of water. So they ceased to put structures in after the draw down like they did in previous years.

Someone answer this. If crappie die too quickly for regulations to work, and growing season is too short, why is the crappie records pretty equal across all states?

die quickly ? the oldest one on record that i have read about was said to be 22yrs old. i think it was from Indiana too. don't know about the records. one would think fish in the south would get bigger.

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Originally Posted by cubswin

Someone answer this. If crappie die too quickly for regulations to work, and growing season is too short, why is the crappie records pretty equal across all states?

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Actually, I don't think crappie records are that equal across states. I took a quick look at the state record white crappie from 30 different states, and they are pretty much all over the board. Four states were over 5 lbs. Twelve states were between 4-5 lbs. Ten states were between 3-4 pounds, and 4 states were less than 3 pounds.

On the age thing, again, there is tremendous variation, even among lakes within the same state. For example, according to recent sampling data in Indiana, crappie lived to age 3 in Brookville, age 4 in Missy, age 5 in Hardy, age 6 in Eagle Creek, age 8 in Monroe, and age 10 in Patoka. This is partly what makes it so tough to set a statewide limit on crappie.

-T9

I don't agree with any fisherman trying to police each other. if you see a violation by all means call tip. that's what its for but no non law enforcement has any right to measure out another mans catch. I guarantee that wouldn't end well.

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Originally Posted by Slab Slayen

I don't agree with any fisherman trying to police each other. if you see a violation by all means call tip. that's what its for but no non law enforcement has any right to measure out another mans catch. I guarantee that wouldn't end well.

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I'll bet you're not a big fan of the citizen's arrest then because that's exactly what it was designed for years ago. BTW, it's alive and well.

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Originally Posted by Slab Slayen

I don't agree with any fisherman trying to police each other. if you see a violation by all means call tip. that's what its for but no non law enforcement has any right to measure out another mans catch. I guarantee that wouldn't end well.

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I don't agree with or suggest it either. I was just saying that is what it would take to really enforce a size limit given the job of the CO and them being so spread thin. I think they do a great job given the tools they are given to do their job. I know two CO's fairly well and would not want their job in any way shape or form. Kudos for the great job they do.

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Originally Posted by cubswin

Someone answer this. If crappie die too quickly for regulations to work, and growing season is too short, why is the crappie records pretty equal across all states?

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Good question!

If this would be true (from T9's post he researched and debunked it), then likely there are less numbers of near-record crappie in states with shorter growing seasons than in those with longer growing seasons. Not to say there aren't near record sized fish swimming around- just they may not be in abundance. There are many interesting anomalies in life. Knowing this, it's understandable that it could be possible for states to have record fish that may weigh similarly.

Something that comes to mind is the world record ~3lb yellow bass Jim caught on Morse about a decade ago. Does Indiana have the longest growing season for this species' range? Nope- it is an anomaly (there may not be many in it's size/year class). Should IN impose a size limit on yellow bass? Definitely not because of this one record fish. The same should be true for crappie.

In closing... Even if the record fish were the same across all states, record fish are anomalies. Besides, many records are antiquated (over 30-40 years old), so they have lost any relevance. Current fish surveys are what should be examined for regulations not a state record specimen (no matter how current). Regulations aren't designed for anomalies. Regulations are for the general population.

Anomaly- "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule."

Hope this helps!

My list may be wrong on the records. I was looking more at the states that crappie have traditionally been popular in. I haven't gone to every states page and double checked the list I'm using, so it may in fact be wrong.

Alabama-4lbs 5 oz
Arizona 4lbs 10 oz
Arkansas 4lbs 9 oz
Indiana 4lbs 11 oz
Georgia 4lbs 4 oz
Illinois 4lbs 8 oz
Iowa 4lbs 9 oz
Kansas 4lbs 10 oz
KY 4lbs 14 oz
Mi 4lbs 1.92 oz
Minnesota 5lbs
Mississippi 4lbs 4oz
Missouri 5lbs
Ohio 4lbs 8oz
oklahoma 4lbs 10 oz
Wisconsin 4lbs 8oz
Virgina 4lbs 10oz
Tennessee 4lbs 4oz
Texas 4.56 lbs

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Originally Posted by Hoosier Crappie

Good question!


In closing... Even if the record fish were the same across all states, record fish are anomalies. Besides, many records are antiquated (over 30-40 years old), so they have lost any relevance. Current fish surveys are what should be examined for regulations not a state record specimen (no matter how current). Regulations aren't designed for anomalies. Regulations are for the general population.

Anomaly- "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule."

Hope this helps!

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I don't disagree that current fish surveys should be the basis for regulations. Just curious, because I have read often how short our growing season is as a reason not reduce limit size or have a length limit. We live in a state that is far from the shortest growing season after all.

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Originally Posted by Team9nine

Actually, I don't think crappie records are that equal across states. I took a quick look at the state record white crappie from 30 different states, and they are pretty much all over the board. Four states were over 5 lbs. Twelve states were between 4-5 lbs. Ten states were between 3-4 pounds, and 4 states were less than 3 pounds.

On the age thing, again, there is tremendous variation, even among lakes within the same state. For example, according to recent sampling data in Indiana, crappie lived to age 3 in Brookville, age 4 in Missy, age 5 in Hardy, age 6 in Eagle Creek, age 8 in Monroe, and age 10 in Patoka. This is partly what makes it so tough to set a statewide limit on crappie.

-T9

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Wonder why Brookville is so short, would think with its location mid state it would be higher. Does get a high amount of pressure though.

Nice info Team9, where did you find it? Just curious...

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Originally Posted by cubswin

My list may be wrong on the records. I was looking more at the states that crappie have traditionally been popular in. I haven't gone to every states page and double checked the list I'm using, so it may in fact be wrong.

Alabama-4lbs 5 oz
Arizona 4lbs 10 oz
Arkansas 4lbs 9 oz
Indiana 4lbs 11 oz
Georgia 4lbs 4 oz
Illinois 4lbs 8 oz
Iowa 4lbs 9 oz
Kansas 4lbs 10 oz
KY 4lbs 14 oz
Mi 4lbs 1.92 oz
Minnesota 5lbs
Mississippi 4lbs 4oz
Missouri 5lbs
Ohio 4lbs 8oz
oklahoma 4lbs 10 oz
Wisconsin 4lbs 8oz
Virgina 4lbs 10oz
Tennessee 4lbs 4oz
Texas 4.56 lbs

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I see your point cubswin, but I guess I'm looking at it in a couple different ways. The above list is for 19 states, meaning there are 31 states not included (>60% of the records), so it seems selective. The other point is that while all those are less than a pound different (5lb-4.1lb), that's still almost 20% variation. Think in terms of if two guys were standing next to each other, one 6'0" and the other 4'10". You wouldn't say they are about the same height, yet they are less than 20% apart in "length".

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Originally Posted by cubswin

Wonder why Brookville is so short, would think with its location mid state it would be higher. Does get a high amount of pressure though.

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Latitude really has very little to do with age difference. Latitude to some degree controls the length of the growing season, but isn't correlated to length of lifespan in that short of distance. The studies that I've seen actually tend to show the reverse, that fish to the north live longer, but fish to the south grow faster. There is even one study that suggests crappie stop growing in some southern waters when water temps get too warm, putting on most of their length in the spring and fall.

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Originally Posted by jpdawg

Nice info Team9, where did you find it? Just curious...

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I've got state fishery research data on various lakes and reservoirs going back close to 30 years in some cases. They've started to put a lot of it online now, but it's been kind of sporadic. I also have unlimited access to several national fisheries research journals.

-T9

Thanks.

I haven't seen anyone weigh in on fishing pressure now vs. 40 - 50 years ago and the amount of the resource removed from the enviroment now with that pressure. Also the knowledge base is much more widespread than in the past. That said I believe the more knowlageable the fisherperson is the more selective they are in harvesting the resource. Thoughts.

im betting the harvest of today and yesteryear are about the same. there wasnt much catch n release back in the day like there is now. im betting it evens out. that being said, on the other hand with social media, the word spreads faster on the hot bites. and fish harvesters are the ones that exploit that the most. i have seen the internet ruin three different bodies of water in this area! same results of yesteryear's "tackle shop gossip" but it dont take near as long. another thought that pops to mind is unemployment. the more folks out of work, the more you see out on the water. this i noticed years ago when this economy went south. i used to see maybe a handful of guys out, in midweek on the ice, now its 3 times that many. those folks will be feeding the family too in some cases.

that question would make a great new thread "foolfishin". lots of variables to think about!

I din't spend much time fishing lakes in the 70's but I remember going to Cat and not having a problem catching several LM over 5 lb and a number of nice crappie throwing small cranks without much compitition from other boats. From the early 80's until around 2005 I didn't fish, too busy keeping bills paid, it was kind of a rude reintroduction to something I really enjoy with the additional watercraft. It could also be funky memories, seems to be more of those as the years go by.

A lot of comments about fishermen keeping small sized crappie, RiverScum and I have pulled a few crappie into the boat in our times. but always thought about the conservation aspect of our fisheries today and our children's fisheries tomorrow. I believe it all falls back on the integrity of the individual fishermen. Just my 2cents

Every law enforcement officer I know says not to take the law into your own hands. I think citizens arrest is callling law enforcement if you see a violation. There will always be cheaters and thiefs.

May be old news, but this just came out about a week back. Proposed changes - Hardy & Dogwood Lakes possibly getting a size limit on Crappie. Umbrella rigs possibly may get approved (don't see why it wouldn't) as long as it has no more than 3 hooks.

https://secure.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/2362.htm

A cut/paste of what I spoke of above. There are tons of stuff on Hunting in there as well. But I don't hunt, so I honestly just glazed over it.

312 IAC 9-7-9: Adds a 9-inch minimum size requirement to harvest crappie at Dogwood Lake in Daviess County and Hardy Lake in Scott County. Research indicates that a 9-inch minimum length limit on crappie at Hardy and Dogwood lakes should improve crappie fishing and make these standout lakes in Indiana.

312 IAC 9-7-2: Makes the following changes governing sport fishing methods, except on the Ohio River:

• Allows three hooks to be used on a sport fishing line instead of two. Clarifies that umbrella (Alabama) rigs and other similar devices can be used with no more than three hooks that have live bait or three artificial lures, or a combination of both. This is currently authorized by temporary rule and a permanent rule is needed. These changes clearly allow the use of umbrella rigs and similar devices and limit the number of hooks or artificial lures allowed on each device, while also increasing the number of hooks from 2 to 3 on all sport fishing lines.