Need Crappie.com Support.

I am a member of another forum about fishing in Louisiana that mainly deals with Saltwater fishing.

As such one of the recent discussion topics has been the new proposed Triple Tail Limits being discussed and to possibly be implemented in La.

The problem with the limits being discussed is that they are not being done based on any scientific study, No one is sure... but there are concerns that this may be happening with backing from commercial fishing lobbys and/or Peta type activists.

There have been no study's on TT's in our waters, and as a group we agreed that it is very important to conduct studies based on the scientific method before instituting very tough limits.

As a result of that discussion a letter was created and I would like anyone here to read it, and if they agree with it.. please forward it to the email addresses at the top of the letter.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.


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SEND To:

Jason Adriance
Fisheries Division
Department of Wildlife and Fisheries
Box 98000
Baton Rouge, LA 70898 9000

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


Dear Mr. Adriance and LWF Commission,

Sportsmen's liberties in pursuing and harvesting game should only be restricted when there is sound and compelling scientific data demonstrating a true conservation need. Regulations should not be based on irrational fear that the resource might not remain for future generations; they should be based on sound scientific data showing the resource cannot be sustained for future generations under current management practices.

Sustainable harvests and use of the resources should always be allowed, and the burden of proof for those proposing new regulations should be on those proposing to impose criminal penalties for liberties which have been previously enjoyed and unregulated. I see no wisdom in adopting restrictive regulations copying the example of neighboring states. Louisiana waters are generally less pressured and allow a more bountiful harvest than neighboring Gulf states. Whenever possible, Louisiana would do well to support the tourism industry and justify the expense of non-resident hunting and fishing licenses by maintaining more liberal harvest limits than other Gulf states. Our "Sportsman's Paradise" allows us to share our resources more liberally.

Data justifying such a radical change in tripletail harvest regulations is sorely lacking. Do the SEAMAP ichthyoplankton surveys show a dramatic downturn in successful spawning in Louisiana waters over the past five or ten years (reduced larval counts)? Do other accepted approaches to comprehensive stock assessments show the tripletail stocks to be in imminent danger of collapse? Why should the LWF Commission set such a dangerous precedence to impose drastic harvest restrictions based on political response to irrational fears rather than sound scientific data-driven policy making? Certainly, the legislature is Constitutionally empowered to make stupid laws in response to public pressure, but shouldn't the LWF Commission be insulated against rash, politically motivated decision making and patiently require sound scientific support before exercising its regulatory powers?

An unpublished study suggesting a recapture rate of 2.5 times "other species" and a single published study (Brown-Peterson and Franks, 2001) describing the preliminary findings of length at 50% sexual maturity of 18" for females and 12" for males does not justify the harvest restrictions of an 18" minimum limit and a bag limit of five fish. With so little known about tripletail life history and so little documented about the recapture study, it is likely that most tripletail have feeding and habitat preferences that leave them invulnerable to capture in the first place and that only the specimens subject to capture once are strongly subject to recapture. Furthermore, until the length at age of each sex is independently determined, a harvest limit of 18" runs the risk of exerting most of the harvest pressure on breeding females and shifting the remaining population to male dominance. It should also be considered that the length limit of 18" will tend to force boats further offshore (the bigger fish are more commonly found further out) raising the costs of participating in this fishery.

There is not sufficient scientific data showing that maintaining current harvest levels of tripletail in Louisiana waters and offshore is not sustainable indefinitely into the future. The proposed regulations are draconian and based in irrational fears. The Federal intrusion into the red snapper fishery is bad enough, but seizing the opportunity to fill coolers with abundant tripletail has salvaged more than a few charter and recreational trips offshore, making good use of an abundant resource.

The LWF Commission should be working to enhance the quality of fisheries science in Louisiana and should strengthen its commitment to data driven policy making. When faced with political pressure increase the regulatory restrictions on recreational and commercial fishers, its response should be to educate the public in the need for better science before implementing policy changes that may be detrimental to the fishery and tourism industries.

Best Regards,

YOUR NAME


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Cut and Paste between the +++++++++++ and put it in email to the email address listed.

What's a triple tail and why do they want to limit it?

:popcorn

Attachment 134048Attachment 134048

That's a triple tail, They are a highly migratory fish that suspends horizontally of flotsam and debris on high salt estuaries / lakes and the gulf of mexico.

Some people refer to the as the Sac-a-lait of Salt Water.

They are not a fish that can be targeted, they are highly migratory and stay with debris and clean water. The state has said that it possibly want's to put a limit in place of 5 fish with an 18" minimum size restriction.

If they were crappie that would mean that you could only keep 5 crappie, with a minimum size restriction of lets around 12-14 inches, on a lake like toledo bend...... This would like very quickly result in a huge overpopulation of crappie in the lake which would then quickly become stunted because of competition and lack of predation. (an 18" TT is a whopper, most you catch fall under that)

Based on studies that have been conducted in other area's targeting 18" inch TT's will mean that you are going to be targeting the breeding stock more than anything else. Also there has been 0 evidence presented that the TT stocks are under any threat from hook and line anglers.

So again.. please forward a copy of this email to the appropriate folks. All fisheries decisions in louisiana should be based on sound scientific studies which will ensure strong populations of fish for our sons and daughters as they inherit our fisheries. If we allow fishery decisions to be based on Whim's of the moneyed elite, or allow them to be made based on private interest group pressure without supporting scientific study's we are going to do nothing but hurt our fisheries.

Please if your unsure about this, ask questions and I will do my best to answer why i need all of your support on this issue.

If we allow LDWF to start making out of hand decisions without scientific study behind them, i am sure you can expect some very foolish fishing regulations all over the state....

If your not sure, ask... If at the end of the day you remain unsure i understand, but please don't just sit on the sidelines, We need support to get LDWF to recognize that Anglers (....ie.... US) want and need to see that scientific method goes into setting the laws that govern fishing.

And for those of you saying... What's a tripletail... i never seen one before... i don't care about that....

I would share with you that I myself have never seen one (i don't get a chance to saltwater fish that often) and have never caught one.

But being as someday I would like to see one and catch one... and i want my kids to have that same opportunity I support strong scientific management of the resource.

Louisiana is the only gulf state that has not regulated the Triple Tail
The Triple Tail is a short lived fish and only lives about 6 years(Crappie can live double that)
Tagged Triple Tails in Louisiana were caught 2 1/2 times more often than any other game fish. This establishes that they are more vulnerable to overfishing.
No in depth studies have been conducted by Louisiana but other gulf states have studies that our Biologists have looked at
Boat Captains in Calcasieu and Borgne Lake have been targeting Triple Tail more often in the last few years than they ever have before. This is due to the fish's growing popularity among anglers and several cooking shows detailing the wonderful mildness of the meat.

If there is no regulation then we may wake up one day and realize that we have devastated our population of this awesome fish. Mankind has shown in the past their destructive behavior when it comes to animals and limiting themselves. Most of us are decent anglers and only take what we can eat, but without regulations we know there are those that will exploit an animal till it no longer exists. History is rife with over-hunting to extinction:
Dodo Bird
Passenger Pigeon
Flying Fox
and many others

And we almost wiped out many other species including:
Buffalo
Muskox
American Crocodile, hunted so fiercely that in 1970 only a few hundred were left.

I happen to support and trust our LDWF because I know they are just protecting animals so that our future generations will have something to Hunt and fish. I know many wildlife agents that love to hunt and fish as much as we do and they got into that profession because of their love of the outdoors. I think the 5 per person limit is not too bad. At 18 inches minimum then 5 big ones is more than enough to go home and feed the family a couple of meals. If 5 ain't enough then catch some redfish, trout, or flounder to go with it. If you take your son, daughter or wife fishing then you can keep 10!!

Sent to all of the addresses. Thanks for the letter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Team M&M

Louisiana is the only gulf state that has not regulated the Triple Tail
The Triple Tail is a short lived fish and only lives about 6 years(Crappie can live double that)
Tagged Triple Tails in Louisiana were caught 2 1/2 times more often than any other game fish. This establishes that they are more vulnerable to overfishing.
No in depth studies have been conducted by Louisiana but other gulf states have studies that our Biologists have looked at
Boat Captains in Calcasieu and Borgne Lake have been targeting Triple Tail more often in the last few years than they ever have before. This is due to the fish's growing popularity among anglers and several cooking shows detailing the wonderful mildness of the meat.

If there is no regulation then we may wake up one day and realize that we have devastated our population of this awesome fish. Mankind has shown in the past their destructive behavior when it comes to animals and limiting themselves. Most of us are decent anglers and only take what we can eat, but without regulations we know there are those that will exploit an animal till it no longer exists. History is rife with over-hunting to extinction:
Dodo Bird
Passenger Pigeon
Flying Fox
and many others

And we almost wiped out many other species including:
Buffalo
Muskox
American Crocodile, hunted so fiercely that in 1970 only a few hundred were left.

I happen to support and trust our LDWF because I know they are just protecting animals so that our future generations will have something to Hunt and fish. I know many wildlife agents that love to hunt and fish as much as we do and they got into that profession because of their love of the outdoors. I think the 5 per person limit is not too bad. At 18 inches minimum then 5 big ones is more than enough to go home and feed the family a couple of meals. If 5 ain't enough then catch some redfish, trout, or flounder to go with it. If you take your son, daughter or wife fishing then you can keep 10!!

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I do understand your sentiment Team M&M, And on the surface you make several valid points about this discussion.

However, Please understand that at no point in time are myself or anyone involved in this letter saying that we do not want sound scientific based management of the Triple Tail Resource.

First, please understand that LDWF has floated this as something that they wish to have discussed, and will be having meetings on the proposed limits to discuss them further. As such i believe we should give them the feedback that before imposing criminal penalties on fishermen, we want there to be scientific study of this fish in Louisiana's waters.

As stated in the letter we feel that it is grossly inappropriate to impose CRIMINAL penalties on someone without any scientific data from our state to support this. Especially when those limits are based on studies in other area's of the gulf of mexico that do not even have a minor percentage of the estuarine habitat of Louisiana.

Additionally when you look at the life cycle of Triple Tail, you can quickly determine that setting a 18" limit will end up being a case where you are almost EXCLUSIVELY then targeting the mature female fish which are the only fish capable of sustaining the population.

Perhaps a slot limit system would be most appropriate... something along the lines of no fish kept between 17-20 inches with only 1 fish kept above 20 inches and a total limit of 5 or 10 fish.

But we have no way of knowing if that is the right course to take because we have no studies to base it on.

I also have some very close friends who are LDWF agents, all of whom are ardent hunters/fishermen. They certainly understand and accept that the correct way to manage fish populations is to use a scientific method to ensure that the stocks are not over-harvested.

They would also say to you that this "knee jerk" reaction which has been proposed without any scientific study in our state, is liable to be just about as effective as if we were to follow any old billy bob's recommendation on how to manage fish.

in other words.... The intent is good.... but the wisdom / science / knowledge is sorely lacking...

The species you listed above were all driven to extinction / near extinction by one common factor.... money... buffalo, passenger pigeon, eastern elk, wild turkey in much of its range, etc etc etc. were all MARKET HUNTED so they could be sold for money. If you want a similar example think of How badly the redfish population was hurt when the "Blackened redfish" craze was going on... Commercial fisherman ramped up production on redfish so quickly that for a few years finding and catching a red was a rarity. Along came some organizations that presented solid SCIENCE to show what needed to be changed, and redfish became a "sport" fish protected from commercial overharvest and they have since then flourished. I say all of the above about commercial interests, because the proposed penalties / regulations are not going to affect them at all... they are squarly aimed at Hook and Line sport fishermen.

I agree with you in one respect. The most important thing to me is that the resource is managed to ensure that we and our future generations have a resource to enjoy. As such i want, expect, and will continue to DEMAND that our state manage our resources based on Science... and not on opinions.... whether they be yours, mine, billybob's.... or anyone else's....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Team M&M

Louisiana is the only gulf state that has not regulated the Triple Tail
The Triple Tail is a short lived fish and only lives about 6 years(Crappie can live double that)
Tagged Triple Tails in Louisiana were caught 2 1/2 times more often than any other game fish. This establishes that they are more vulnerable to overfishing.
No in depth studies have been conducted by Louisiana but other gulf states have studies that our Biologists have looked at
Boat Captains in Calcasieu and Borgne Lake have been targeting Triple Tail more often in the last few years than they ever have before. This is due to the fish's growing popularity among anglers and several cooking shows detailing the wonderful mildness of the meat.

If there is no regulation then we may wake up one day and realize that we have devastated our population of this awesome fish. Mankind has shown in the past their destructive behavior when it comes to animals and limiting themselves. Most of us are decent anglers and only take what we can eat, but without regulations we know there are those that will exploit an animal till it no longer exists. History is rife with over-hunting to extinction:
Dodo Bird
Passenger Pigeon
Flying Fox
and many others

And we almost wiped out many other species including:
Buffalo
Muskox
American Crocodile, hunted so fiercely that in 1970 only a few hundred were left.

I happen to support and trust our LDWF because I know they are just protecting animals so that our future generations will have something to Hunt and fish. I know many wildlife agents that love to hunt and fish as much as we do and they got into that profession because of their love of the outdoors. I think the 5 per person limit is not too bad. At 18 inches minimum then 5 big ones is more than enough to go home and feed the family a couple of meals. If 5 ain't enough then catch some redfish, trout, or flounder to go with it. If you take your son, daughter or wife fishing then you can keep 10!!

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:ThumbsUp:hesaid



Prowler I have bitten my tongue so many times wanting to call out the author of that letter on the other site, and its hard to keep doing so. The main one pushing this is a physicist, and has not one bit of wildlife management background behind him. Anyone can read a few publications on a subject and suddenly become an expert, but if you do not know the very basics then you can't really be an expert.
LDWF may not be the very best at keeping everyone happy, but they are the best at what they do (wildlife management). When you have a physics question or physics problem, you consult with a physicist, when you have a wildlife question or problem, you consult with the professionals in that field and LDWF has plenty of them.

Duck,

I hear you... and i think it would be fair to say that I was pretty much the only person over there that also supported some of the views that you had.

But you do have to give credit to the 900 pound gorilla in the room... which is that they are considering putting very tough limits in place with almost zero science to back it up.

That's the main reason why i support this letter is because it is asking LDWF to not go off half cocked, It's asking LDWF to study the situation before making a quick decision. It doesn't mean that i agree with the original statements that started the discussion. (not at all) It does mean that i think all of us as sportsmen asking LDWF to study populations in Louisiana is a good thing.

You just can't compare Louisiana to other states in the GOM. If you could programs that manage the gulf as a whole (see federal red snapper regs) would be shining star example's of how to effectively manage wildlife.... When in reality they end up possibly being the worst possible way to manage a fishery.

And your certainly right about MG... between him and the internet celebrity over there, I would be hard pressed to tell you who is more shall we say.. "mightier than thou"

But.. again to me this is not about there original argument.... it's about saying to ldwf & the other organizations involved... Let's get some real studies going here folks.

At least that's the way i read it brother.... If i am wrong by all means feel free to give me a big "I told you so" after its all said and done.

:)

On a side note, we have i think all watch conservation efforts grow and change. For me a big eye opener was watching how the deer seasons changed and evolved over the last 20+ years in Maryland when i lived and hunted there.

When i first moved to MD and started hunting and even more bowhunting, man there were deer everywhere.... there were places that one could go to and see well over 100 deer a day. But in those days there were very strict buck only hunting with a requirement being that a buck had to have horns more than 3" long for you to harvest it. You might go a week, see a 1000 deer (I BS you not) and not have a chance at a single legal animal. In addition during that time deer regularly had large die off's in hard winters do to being so overpopulated. You could walk thru the woods and there was not a single green thing below 7ft from the ground, all of it had been browsed.

Times started changing, bowhunters were allowed to harvest does, a couple doe days were dropped into the mix. Next thing you know, more and more nice bucks are taken...... more changes... more doe days... lots of people were very slow to change their mind about shooting does, because they were raised in the days of the deer being very rare. But slowly opinions were changed. Now a days, the deer herds are much better managed, There are still many places in Maryland where you can go and see a prodigious amount of deer in a day. But a good percentage of them will be racked bucks, additionally the animals are much more healthy since the herd has been reduced a bit to being closer to the lands carrying capacity.... as a result you don't see deer dieoff's in the winter, you actually see available browse in the woods, etc etc etc... In the last few years they have started pilot programs to have hunter only harvest 6 point or better animals with decent antler spreads.... The results have been astounding with more does being taken and with bucks being given the opportunity to mature... each year some absolutely MASSIVE deer are coming out of MD. Don't believe me??? look up the P&Y & B&C records.. you will see that maryland has more and more entries every year.

All of this based on proven science that we today know and call Quality Deer Management. It's almost universally accepted today that its the way to manage your deer herd. Thus i would like for our conservation path here, and nationwide to be based on the science of how to make the population completely sustainable and increase its quality.

I hear you prowler and agree, but there is way too much speculation that this is not based on science. There is a meeting coming up and IF after that meeting it is found out that this wasn't based on science, then the riots can start and bring out the pitchforksrotfl

Still not sure why people are so worked up about a fish that no one hardly catches?!

If in the meeting it ends up that we have a whole bunch of science already done here to support these limits. Then heck i am all for it.

I think the reason people are getting up in arms about this is twofold...

#1 at its root everyone can agree that if regs are not based on sound science and just based on someone saying this is what we should do.. that's never good. So people are worried that if the state starts making snap judgements on whims, they might do the same for other stuff. (at least that's a major concern for me)

#2 secondly... most of the people posting on the other forum are from the SW part of the state where there is a has been different regulations from the rest of the state in regards to speckled trout. A lot of people are strongly questioning why this was done, because they are seeing that a fishery that was once considered to be a trophy hotspot is rapidly being turned into just a good place to catch a limit. (wrong or right that's the perception out there) It certainly have some scientific legs because it has been proven in many different ways that when a water body become's overpopulated with a certain type of fish they quickly become stunted and don't reach their growth potential.

I still think half the folks over there are crazy for jumping on the we wont support conservation program X because of this little itty bitty thing.

All in all during this discussion I probably agree with you more than anyone else, But i do think putting a little bit of pressure on folks to show the science / get the science to support a decision is a very good thing.

ooops double post sorry.

Guys, I'm on the (Other site) as well. I rarely post there anymore because there is always an argument going on. I mean no disrespect and am not trying to be rude when I say this. Please don't make this post the same thing so many of us here try our best to avoid, an argument.

Thanks in advance; respectfully, S.R.

I agree with Shallow Runner and don't post on that other site either (and for the same reasons). Maybe this should be moved to the off topic board. Just my 2 cents.

theysaid

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shallow Runner

Guys, I'm on the (Other site) as well. I rarely post there anymore because there is always an argument going on. I mean no disrespect and am not trying to be rude when I say this. Please don't make this post the same thing so many of us here try our best to avoid, an argument.

Thanks in advance; respectfully, S.R.

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I don't think there's any fighting going on here? At least i can certainly say that for my part i mean nothing i have said here to be negative towards anyone. First and foremost i am a fisherman, which plainly means that i love and enjoy many of the same things that all of you do. I do believe this letter needs to be shared so people can make their own choice on sending / or not sending it in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadow

I agree with Shallow Runner and don't post on that other site either (and for the same reasons). Maybe this should be moved to the off topic board. Just my 2 cents.

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Nothing wrong with that, if the mods feel that's where this belongs i have no qualms with it.

I do apologize if anyone is taking offense to me posting this here or in responding about to concerns about why i support the letter itself.

I take some measure of satisfaction in helping people to do what they dream of doing, whether that be fishing, hunting, or anything else that presents a challenge. When i have knowledge i feel that it is my duty to share my knowledge with someone in need without judging them. I think anyone who has known me long enough and knows what i usually talk about in posts knows this to be true.

The internet is a great forum for that because it allows people who might never meet in real life to share and learn about those things that they are passionate.

I have learned many years worth of sound fishing wisdom from both this forum and the other. There is no doubt, that my fishing successes have been in large part attributable to the knowledge i have been given here and there. As such my main desire is to alway's give back to the next person in need of help... A bit of "pay it forward" if you will.

Duck Butter is a very solid good person, and I have nothing but respect for him and his viewpoints on this matter. He was one of a very very few people from the other site who actually responded and offered real advice / help when i had questions on how to go about fishing / crabbing / shrimping in SE louisiana.

I have not previously spoken with Team M&M, but i have no doubt that he is a good solid person as well.

So although it might look a little like we are disagreeing, i promise you that we only have a difference of opinion.

I did move this thread. and the main reason I did is because it is not a crappie fishing thread. I do agree that we don't want to become a boxing ring like so many other forums. lets keep cool heads and if someone has a differing opinion, lets remain respectful. thanks guys. doc :)

I have been following this and find it very interesting Prowler. This post has been very informative. At least there isn't a discussion about identifying some sort of bream, or going fast, or killing snakes :)

is it ok to put the popcorn guy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by docwaldo

I did move this thread. and the main reason I did is because it is not a crappie fishing thread. I do agree that we don't want to become a boxing ring like so many other forums. lets keep cool heads and if someone has a differing opinion, lets remain respectful. thanks guys. doc :)

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Thanks for moving it Doc... I probably should have posted it here in the first place anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishervet

is it ok to put the popcorn guy?

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:popcorn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracker123

I have been following this and find it very interesting Prowler. This post has been very informative. At least there isn't a discussion about identifying some sort of bream, or going fast, or killing snakes :)

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Hey man... why do you gotta derail my thread like that... next thing you know someone is gonna post a picture of a yellowbellied specklechested frogfart fish.... and then try to tell all of us internet experts that its actually a yellowtopped spraychested swampchicken fish!!!!

I thought we were tight tracker!!! :)

No Prowler, and If I offended you i'm sorry, it was not my intentions. I think you are doing a fine job expressing something you are passionate about. Nothing wrong with that.

Prowler, I hope you didn't take my asking about it being moved to the "off topic" the wrong way. The off topic forum came about after myself and another gentleman (whose name I won't mention) had a dissagreement on the board. I want say who was right or wrong because in reality, we were both somewhat right and somewhat wrong. I was the monitor at that time and I probably should have handled it differently. I feel that I lost a friend over that and would hate to see anyone else make the same mistakes I made. I know that you will get more responses posting to the main "Louisiana fourm". I would have liked to post my "Alaska" post on the main forum but out of respect for the ones that just want crappie post on there, I posted it on the "off topic" with a small post on the "Louisiana" forum for those who might have wanted to see the pictures but don't visit the "off topic" forum. Again, I hope you did not take it the wrong way and if I offended you in anyway, I am truly sorry. I have enjoyed reading your post and see that you are someone that researches his information before posting and I appreciate that.

BTW, If you come down my way and want to get together and do some crabbing/shrimping/fishing feel free to call me. I believe you have my number. If not, PM me and I will send it to you.
Thanks again for the informative post.

some of the nicest darn people i have ever known...or not known...but you know what I mean........

I am gonna try and change that at this year's Toledo bend gathering.. :)