lesson learned about round head jig molds

ok guys what gives here i have a barbed round headed mold and i bought a new mold just a round head no barb no color in part my thoughts were that the round head without a barb to get the weight correct it would be a bit biger than the one without the barb . but it turns out that its not its the same size hmmmmm why is this by not having any scales to weigh the two i am without knowing witch one is a correct size 1/32 or a correct 1/16 either so my question to you all is who amung us here has the answer im looking for and whats the differance and why are the do-it molds this way i have the minow head molds and the ball head barbed and several others had i known this was this way i would have bought a biger head size mold in this style to match what my customers are already a custom to becouse the barbed color round head is heavyer no doubt than just a plain round head without a barb .:confused:


thanks and im looking forword to your responces to figure out my problem

Good question. I also don't have a scale to see the difference. I have a minnow head mold that says the small one is a 1/48 with a barbed collar. My thought is that it might have been before they added the collar, but it's more like a 1/32 now. Suits me as that is about as small as I use anyway. I'm sure that the 1/16 is heavier than that, but it's not 1/8 for sure. I'm also interested to see the results of this if someone has a scale to tell the real truth.

I don't have any molds, but I do have some digital scales and every time I weigh jig heads the smaller the more accurate the weight is. So my 1/64 and 1/80 are pretty much on the money, but once you get to even 1/32 they are off and the bigger the more that are off and some a lot. Example I have some 1/32 minnow heads with collar and without collar and the ones with no collar are closer than the ones with collar. The non collar are actually .045 and should be .03125 and the one with a collar are even worse at .055 or getting close to a 1/16 Oz. (.0625).

So lots of people out there think they are fishing with a 1/32 are not actually especially if they have a collar using soft plastics!

This is just one example, but I see it all the time!

Skip

I think it has to do with the purity of the lead that the heads are poured with.

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Originally Posted by pa_slabs

i think it has to do with the purity of the lead that the heads are poured with.

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ditto
jsc

That purity has some to do with it, but more to do with the size of the head and the collar added on as I don't think the mold makers consider that at all. If purity was a big issue then my 1/64 wouldn't hit exactly on 1/64 IMHO! Now I don't pour heads so this just just from what I have seen and use to by my heads from a guy that used pretty darn pure lead and still not right. Also if purity was the issue then they would even be heavier when using just lead, but they are too heavy anyway. All of my heads that are too heave are not pure lead and if they were they would even be more off.


Skip

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Originally Posted by skiptomylu

That purity has some to do with it, but more to do with the size of the head and the collar added on as I don't think the mold makers consider that at all. If purity was a big issue then my 1/64 wouldn't hit exactly on 1/64 IMHO! Now I don't pour heads so this just just from what I have seen and use to by my heads from a guy that used pretty darn pure lead and still not right. Also if purity was the issue then they would even be heavier when using just lead, but they are too heavy anyway. All of my heads that are too heave are not pure lead and if they were they would even be more off.


Skip

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I don't pour either. Here's the thing tho. A lot of guys will pour w better quality/purer lead when making 1/80 and 1/64s b/c it has a lower melting temp allows it to pour easier into the small molds. So that may explain why the smaller sizes are more accurate.


Also, a lot of pourers will modify their molds for the collared jigs. A very small change in the diameter of a sphere has a suprising affect to the volume/mass.

I just think there is less room for error or change in weight when dealing with smaller heads and I know the guy I buy all mine for is not using different lead on the small ones.

Want to know for sure, just ask Paul/Grousefly as he makes a ton of stuff and so many jig heads I don't think he has time to change his lead.

Skip

Yeah its not lead impurity... Lead is a heavy metal, when it's molten all the impuritys float to the top and you can skim it off... It's such a heavy metal you don't even need any flux to separate the lead from impurity's... When your lead is molten it should look beautifully shiny just like liquid mercury (another heavy metal)... And if it's not use a spoon to skim off any impurity's. Like skimtomylu He's probably right about the company's not being completely accurate on weight with different versions of the same mold, and plus hooks will probably differ a couple thousandths of a degree along with barb and barbless.

Have been reading and mulling this over in my head. I don't or haven't come up with a answer yet. But the only thing that I can think of is A. That it has something to do with the lead or the lead Alloy that they think you are going to pour with. As there is a change in the specific gravity of a lead alloy to pure lead. Or B. Its that Do-It wanted to make a uniform size to the heads whether it be collard or uncollard. Just not sure but does have me thinking. Now where is my digital scale its around here some where.

Redman

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Originally Posted by Redman

Have been reading and mulling this over in my head. I don't or haven't come up with a answer yet. But the only thing that I can think of is A. That it has something to do with the lead or the lead Alloy that they think you are going to pour with. As there is a change in the specific gravity of a lead alloy to pure lead. Or B. Its that Do-It wanted to make a uniform size to the heads whether it be collard or uncollard. Just not sure but does have me thinking. Now where is my digital scale its around here some where.

Redman

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Find them and you will be surprised at how far almost all heads are off unless they are very small heads. They don't need to be collared to be off.

Skip

They also probably don't expect anyone to measure them...

I will do just that Skip. I found my scale and want to set up a experiment, I will post data when I get the results. Think that this will be interesting. Well for a old geezer like me it will.

Redman

I started pouring jigs this year and at first I was using some filler sticks our cable splicers at work use..They are 40% tin and you could tell the difference between those heads and the heads I have poured using the solid lead sleeves I now use..Havent weighed them but as some of you have said the larger jigs were noticeable

Heck just weigh a 1/16 Oz. Real Roadrunner head and see what you get. I will tell you it's closer to a 1/8 than it is 1/16. The 1/32 are close to what they should be, but only choice there is a #6 hook which is small, but still they work best of all since their weight is pretty good. The funny thing is a 1/8 Oz. Real Roadrunner is pretty close, but is less than 1/8 without the blade, but with the blade it's almost exact.

Anyway why the 1/16 is the only one of the 3 sizes that is not close at all?

Skip

Could do with heating temps also, hotter lead may lead to smaller weights when poured and vice versa. May also heave to do with impurities more in the sense that they expand more than lead will leading to the right size head but lighter weights and again, vice versa, impurities don't expand as much and lead to heavier jig heads.

Just thoughts, I don't know anything for sure about any of it.

I wonder if Do it or any of the other companies have an actual explanation.

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Originally Posted by skiptomylu

Heck just weigh a 1/16 Oz. Real Roadrunner head and see what you get. I will tell you it's closer to a 1/8 than it is 1/16. The 1/32 are close to what they should be, but only choice there is a #6 hook which is small, but still they work best of all since their weight is pretty good. The funny thing is a 1/8 Oz. Real Roadrunner is pretty close, but is less than 1/8 without the blade, but with the blade it's almost exact.

Anyway why the 1/16 is the only one of the 3 sizes that is not close at all?

Skip

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Now that is weird. You Should write the company and see what they have to say about that.

Hi guys, sorry to come to this late. I am very seriously starting to set up molds for pouring my own 32nd oz heads primarily because I cannot find the ones I want with the size hooks I want. That is how I stumbled on this thread.

There are couple of issues in this conversation.

First the collar and the tang are figured into the head weight; so tanged jig heads have a smaller diameter ball than non-tanged ones for the weight. I use them both and that is pretty standard, but it may not be universal which may account for some of the differences noted above.

Second size of the ball involved varies between companies and molds despite the material being poured, and then the same mold will produce different weights if the material is markedly different. On the ice we find a very marked difference between tungsten and lead jigs of the exact same size and shape. I really gotta think that company scales simply are calibrated differently. The 32nd oz tanged heads from Southern Pro are larger than those from Eagle Claw, for example. No question there is a variation there. Personally I tend to fish with the same brand for better uniformity and that gives me better control over the presentations.

Thirdly there is also a size difference in the diameter of the finished item depending on what finish was used and how many coats were given. Most finishes are thick enough that they reduce the function of a tang on the little jigs. Most manufacturers don't pay enough attention to get a good tang anyway. I fish both tanged and untanged round head jigs depending on the style of plastic I will be using with them. I want a good hooking tang, preferably reversed on a parallel collar. Pretty much all one can get is the tapered collars with the tiny reverse tangs which don't hold very well. Too many collared jig heads come with tiny enough tangs that any amount of finish coat pretty much destroys whatever little function that had in the first place. No wonder tubes slip, spoiling presentations and increasing the spin that results in line twist.

That is why I am seriously considering making my own molds and/or getting a blank machined. I prefer 6 and 8 sized bronze or black hooks on 32nd oz heads; the reverse tang is meant to both open the hook gap and to keel out the jig hopefully to reduce spin. I would prefer to be able to buy the jigs, but that is proving to be difficult to next to impossible. Such a little thing...

Also a lot depends on the lead make up or where it came from and how pure it is as far as what it weighs and I think that may be the biggest factor in the jig heads weighing different that what the mold says it is.

I don't know anything about pouring jig heads, but I do tie a lot and have many sizes and the only ones I find are actually what they say they are end up being the 2 smaller jig heads I have, 1/64 & 1/32 and anything larder is always off a little even if they have nothing to do what a collar.

I know a guy that is making his own molds, but has a really beautiful equipment set up for doing that. He sent me some pics of his work and showed his equipment involved and I got to say he didn't go on the cheap for sure and have very impressive set up.

Skip

I'm just not gonna worry about it cause to get that scientific would spoil the fun of fishing

THat is the best thing Fatman because we can talk about this all we want to, it is what it is. I gave up on expecting a jig to weigh what it says and am more interested in it physical size. It's not going to change and if weight is that important for what ever reason then they need to consider that otherwise just fish size. A 1/32 is usually pretty close and 1/16 may actually be 1/18, but it's not a big difference most of the time. Now just know when you buy a 1/16 Roadrunner it's going to be a good bit heavier than that, but then the funny part the 1/8 is much more accurate. Jig heads is a very strange thing and you can get a fancy as you want with sockets for the glue on 3D eyes and all, but my self most of the time will just use a plane head with no eyes and don't care if it's a minnow head or a ball head. I just don't see the need for the extra cost of the special eyes and if I want eyes I just as soon paint them on and put a good clear coat over that.

Skip

I have never even thought about the actual weight of the jig, it is more the physical size of the jig head that I look at. And the only reason I even use a collared jig head is for something for the thread to hold on to, instead of trying to tie to a hook shank itself. The collar helps makes the hair or what ever flare out. While open water fishing, a slower drop is usually better, so who cares what quality lead it is, as far as weight. When ice fishing I often use Tungsten jigs because they do drop faster but you are going through ice and slush sometimes trying to get it down the hole, and you want a small heavy jig to get down to your depth faster and help keep your line tight to detect light strikes and keep line coil to a minimum.

Pure lead and hook size.

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Originally Posted by darcie1

Pure lead and hook size.

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and…….

The mold makers do not concern themselves with ensuring that the cavity sizes are correct for the weight of the finished jig. I feel that has more to do with the differences than any of the guesses so far.



I have a CNC mold that was said to be 1/8th ounce with the collar on one side, and the flip side 1/8 th ounce without the collar. It is in fact 1/10th ounce without the collar. The maker didn’t care to resize the cavity to make it larger for the non collared side. Didn’t care to do so. Didn’t care if I cared either.

I also have a CNC mold that is spot on. The maker obviously took the time to pour a few cavities and make adjustments in the size of the cavity to get the weight correct.

Do-It molds gets lucky every so often with their stuff. I think they hold the finished jig up and say….”Hmmmmm looks like 1/16th ounce. Don’t it Bob ?”

So in the end does it matter if a jig weighs 1/16th ounce or 1/18th ounce ? Probably not. Those that troll to catch fish are really the only ones that the difference might affect, and even so the difference wouldn’t be noticeable.

I use a small digital scale to check the weights when I first get a mold. The rest of the time it stays in a drawer. My wife saw it one day and asked if it was from my drug dealing days. I told her no it wasn’t. I used a really big scale back then. LOL

Mic, thanks for reviving this post. It has comments from a friend long gone, Redman. A very nice guy that was a good influence on all that crossed his path. This conversation is as relevant now as it was then.

If you guys want to send 12 jigs of each size and style to weigh and get an average I’ll be happy to report back. :biggrin