Ethanol in Gas & Boat Motors

There was a good article by Bryan Hendricks in Thursday's Arkansas Democrat-Gazette about the possible increase of ethanol in gas and the effect on boat motors, ATVs, etc. He got information from Larry Morris at H2O Sports who is a top notch mechanic and knows quite a bit about boat motors. Bottom line: Ethanol + Gas not good. I have posted the article below for those that didn't see it.

LB

ARKANSAS SPORTSMAN: Be wary of ethanol in engines
BY BRYAN HENDRICKS
Thursday, February 10, 2011
LITTLE ROCK — If ethanol wasn’t enough of a headache for boat owners and ATV riders, it’s about to get even worse.
In November, the Environmental Protection Agency approved gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol for use in motor vehicles. Previously, fuel couldn’t contain more than 10 percent ethanol. The increase was a boost to corn growers and the ethanol manufacturing industry, but it was bad news for the marine industry and other recreational markets that use small engines in their products. That’s because fuel containing more than 10 percent ethanol can cause catastrophic failure in small, two-cycle engines.
To be fair, the EPA warns that 15-percent ethanol is not for use in marine engines, motorcycle engines and motorized lawn and garden tools. However, retailers will not be required to label E15 fuel. To be safe, you’ll just have to assume that all ethanol will contain the higher concentration.
Larry Morris, a marine technician at H2O Sports in Sherwood, said that 15-percent ethanol poses two major problems to boat motors. One, ethanol is a less efficient fuel than pure gasoline, so it doesn’t create as much energy per unit. Since 15-percent ethanol is less efficient than 10-percent ethanol, it requires more E15 to create the same amount of energy that you currently get from E85 (10-percent ethanol). Therefore, the fuel-oil-air mixture in E85 will probably be too lean.
The bigger problem is that 10-percent ethanol deteriorates fuel lines. It breaks down their inner lining, which releases solid particles into the fuel and can clog carburetor jets, fuel injectors and fuel pumps. E15 will be even more destructive.
“Then you’ve got problems,” Morris said. “It could be catastrophic problems, like taking out a power head, or leaning out an engine to the point that it melts the pistons, but the main thing we’ve been seeing is problems with rubber components.”
Also, a weakened section of fuel line loses its rigidity and collapses, which starves the engine of fuel. I’ve seen this happen on the water, most recently in October while crappie fishing on Lake Hamilton. In a worst case, a fuel line can break, which will not only disable your engine but also cause a fire hazard.
“We started seeing it about two years ago. It’s out there,” Morris said. “When older boats come in, one of the first things we look at are the fuel lines from the tank to the engine. The percentage [of line failures] is growing every day. I’ve seen engines a year old that start up and run fine, but then you get halfway across the lake, and it dies. It’s already made the liner come loose in the fuel line. After it runs awhile, the line collapses and starves the engine.”
Fortunately, the marine and recreational engine market has been proactive in trying to get ahead of E85 problems, but there’s probably no way to outpace E15 mischief. The best thing boat owners and ATV riders can do is not run their machines on ethanol. That means you’ll have to find a gas station that sells pure gas. We have a number of those in central Arkansas, including five in Little Rock, six in North Little Rock and one in Sherwood. A comprehensive, statewide list is available online at http://pure-gas.org/index. jsp?stateprov=AR.
You can also buy fuel additives that stabilize ethanol, including Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment and StaBil Marine Formula. I use the StaBil in my 25 horsepower Yamaha outboard and the Star Tron in my ATV. Both perform satisfactorily, and I haven’t seen enough difference to recommend one over the other except price. Star Tron is more expensive.
Also, fuel line manufacturers are making new generations of line with materials that are more resistant to ethanol deterioration.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, when fuel makers quit putting lead in their gasoline, the automotive press lamented that older engines, particularly those in vintage muscle cars, wouldn’t run on unleaded gas. They ran just fine, however, and I wonder if these alarms about ethanol are false prophesies.
Morris said no. Ethanol can and does damage small motors, and E15 will probably cost you a lot of money if you use it in your boat or ATV. Since there’s no way of knowing if the gas you buy is E15 or E85, just avoid it altogether and hope the feds don’t outlaw pure gasoline.

Thanks for the post. The link to finding stations is great to have.

I ALWAYS use STABIL MARINE FUEL TREATMENT, even though I have to stations near my home that has non-Ethanol gas. This is the blue colored Stabil not the Red. I use it in all my outdoor equipment and my wquipment ran great with no problems last year. I put it in my boat gas even though it has no Ethanol in it. You can also use Johnson's 2+4 gas treatment but is is more expensive.

Where does one find Blue Sta-Bli???? Thanks

So when is this increase in ethonol supposed to begin showing up at the pump? I have been using the blue Stabil since learning about it last year, and have had no problems yet. I have a 1985 Merc 115hp, so should I get rid of it while the getting is good. I don't understand why something cannot be done about this, knowing of the problems it will cost folks with marine engines and ATV's. Then just because a station says they are alcohol free, how do you know for sure? I've not even seen any making that claim in Memphis area.

I have seen the blue Stabil at Wal-Mart in the automotive dept. and they have it at Bass Pro Shop. Believe it or not the Wal-Mart price was $10 and BPS has it for $8 for a 8oz. bottle. That was last week.

I have a 1987 60 hp merc, 2 cycle, 3 cylinder, that now has a bad cylinder, it had been running just great then suddenly it has a bad cylinder. I really feel strongly the fuel had something to do with it. I tried to purchase non-ethanol but it was not always convienant so sometimes I bought the gas with ethanol. If I have the motor rebuilt it will be about $2,000. That is a hard lick to take just for unsupectedly buying something that is working to destroy your motor. I have been hearing about consumers having chainsaws, lawnmowers and other small engines going bad related to ethanol. Personaly I do not know if ethanol was the culprit in my engine failure,
if it was it is hard for me to grasp how our government, that wants to regulate everything, can allow the sale of something that reaks so much damage.

If anyone else out there has a nightmare to relate involving ethanol please share it. Not trying to hijack the thread just wondering is ethanol really devil water.

i talked to a motor mechanic this afternoon and he said the additives will not stop ethanol gas from eating away at the hoses. and the new hoses are expensive. i'm talking about the gas line from tank to motor but i'm going to replace the hoses on my motor with the new hoses too.

Personally I don't believe half of what the fuel additive companies claim so I wouldn't be surprised if they don't help curve the issue.

Here is my 2 cents.....YouTube Ethanol and one can see what it does in an open (vented) system as in boat motors and other small engines.

Bryant Wal-Mart never has Blu Sta-Bil. I have been using Sea Foam. I buy what the station claims ethanol free.

2007 Optimax 150 gray fuel line red lettering and was told to replace it. Because it is not if it will go bad but when. :rolleyes:

Hope this helps.

ic, walmart keeps their red and blue stabil in different places. the blue, if they have it, will be on the top shelf towards the end close to the back wall. i forget what stuff it's with. the red is on the other side of that isle at the end close to the isle running along the ends of the rows if thats clear. one is on one side at one end and the other is on the other side at the other end. top shelf. i use both in my gas and use more than it says to use. kinda like the old maid using a rubber on a banana. just a little extra precaution.

I havent had any problems with my outboard motor but I have with my toy a 1978 Triumph 1500 Spitfire. I mix a tank 1/2 regular and 1/2 (racing fuel, 7.00 gal) for best performance. The fumes in a racing fuel are much greater - hotter - and give better peak running.

My new boat I bought last week---The mechanic said these new motors are made to run the ethanol along with gas. He said it is only a percentage of it in the mixture. He advises using a stabilizer if the gas is kept over 30 days at which he ill advises. I was told to place only enough in the tank that it would not take all summer to burn out.
There was no mention of motor damage by him, just bad gas problems and running rough and probably tune ups and cleaning carbs.
We as the boat owner can prevent all of this------Bradford Marine Mechanic----Texarkana---He is super-- for those that knows Mark.

I have had several fuel related problems running 10%. First I had a 1 year old primer bulb go bad so I cut it open just to see what it looked like. Looked like a cat had shredded the inside, outside still looked new. Next my fuel pump that had rebuilt the year before failed, clogging the carb. Next the needle valve started sticking. It has been an ongoing repair process, all fuel related. All of our stations now sell ethanol blended gas.

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Originally Posted by Backwater Man

My new boat I bought last week---The mechanic said these new motors are made to run the ethanol along with gas. He said it is only a percentage of it in the mixture. He advises using a stabilizer if the gas is kept over 30 days at which he ill advises. I was told to place only enough in the tank that it would not take all summer to burn out.
There was no mention of motor damage by him, just bad gas problems and running rough and probably tune ups and cleaning carbs.
We as the boat owner can prevent all of this------Bradford Marine Mechanic----Texarkana---He is super-- for those that knows Mark.

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Most new motors are four strokes are'nt they? Us guys with old style 2 strokes need to find real 100 % gasoline if possiable.

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Originally Posted by leakfree

I have had several fuel related problems running 10%. First I had a 1 year old primer bulb go bad so I cut it open just to see what it looked like. Looked like a cat had shredded the inside, outside still looked new. Next my fuel pump that had rebuilt the year before failed, clogging the carb. Next the needle valve started sticking. It has been an ongoing repair process, all fuel related. All of our stations now sell ethanol blended gas.

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Look here for ethanol free gas. Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

So should I run sea foam (which i already do and really think it makes a difference) and get the ethanol treatment to run in the gas? Or will sea foam alone protect my motor?

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Originally Posted by 501mooney87

So should I run sea foam (which i already do and really think it makes a difference) and get the ethanol treatment to run in the gas? Or will sea foam alone protect my motor?

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I perfer to avoid anything like alcohol when using ethanol. I use the stabil and a water seperater on my gas line. Try to use pure fresh gas and avoid ethanol if possiable.

Sounds like to myself the olden days are back----Dad and some others told me they use to run Moonshine in Model A and Model T's to include the old tractors.
The fuel may be running hotter like the shine----
I spoke with a top notch mechanic also and he told me the new outboards have adjusted for the new fuels and ethanol.
He also told me to use a fuel additive and never fill your tank full----Only have a 30 day supply or less in the tank--he claims it goes bad after 30 days.
I use a fuel additive--I will check the name--it is red in color and pretty expensive---1oz. to 6 gallons of fuel.
Personally I have not had any fuel problems in my outboards.
My problem is my new 2011 truck with the 4.3 in it---A gas hog--about 20 MPG--maybe some think that is great--not me.

just think. it only costs you 3.50 for every 20 miles you drive. and it's only going to get worse. much worse.

A gallon only gets me 15-16 miles. And that's just the gas. I bet it costs a Buck a mile if you figure it all up.

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Originally Posted by olduckhunter

i talked to a motor mechanic this afternoon and he said the additives will not stop ethanol gas from eating away at the hoses. and the new hoses are expensive. i'm talking about the gas line from tank to motor but i'm going to replace the hoses on my motor with the new hoses too.

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This is true. Also, I don't believe stabilizers will keep phase separation from occurring either. I use stabilizer (Sta-bil or Seafoam) in all my outboard and small engine gas, along with driving out of my way to find non-ethanol fuel. If you can't find a gas station with non-ethanol gas, you can always use airplane gas. It's more expensive, but prob. less than a carb. rebuild would be.

I use non-ethanol gas and add the new marine (blue) sta-bil just to make sure in all my lawn equipment and boat motor. I just hope that with the increase in gas prices it doesn't cause some problems with getting non-ethanol gas.

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Originally Posted by olduckhunter

just think. it only costs you 3.50 for every 20 miles you drive. and it's only going to get worse. much worse.

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I can hardly wait---Than I will file bankruptcy---ha ha----joking of course

My gas hose was looking a little soft the other day so I replaced it. CAttachment 57259ut it open to find this. This line is 2 years old.

I am going straight AV gas for everything except vehicles. Costs a dollar a gal more but much cheaper in the long run....plus peace of mind.

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Originally Posted by luvpt

I am going straight AV gas for everything except vehicles. Costs a dollar a gal more but much cheaper in the long run....plus peace of mind.

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do outboard makers recommend it for their motors and will they honor the warranty if you use it? with the computers they have on motors now they can just about tell what you had for lunch when you were fishing thursday. if you fished thursday.

And they now allow 15% ethanol instead of just 10%. It's only gonna get worse. Thankfully we've got a gas station/bait store where we buy our minnows that carries ethanol free gas.

I always use Sta-bil in my marine and other small engines. I have found that on my 40 hp Evilrude, if you leave the boat on the trailer with the water submerged, disconnect the fuel line from the motor, and let it run till it runs out of gas, it starts and runs well every time. I never over winter an engine with gas in it. Gas of any kind will deterioate over winter, so I use the same method and run each engine completely out of gas and drain the tanks, then start fresh every spring. I did not do that one year and I wound up with a $300 carb. repair.

We use our boat year round fishing and duck hunting so there is no down time. I use stabilizer and have one tank go bad. Never happened before, ever! Just fed up with the government imposing something that cost me more money and time.

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Originally Posted by Backwater Man

My new boat I bought last week---The mechanic said these new motors are made to run the ethanol along with gas. He said it is only a percentage of it in the mixture. He advises using a stabilizer if the gas is kept over 30 days at which he ill advises. I was told to place only enough in the tank that it would not take all summer to burn out.
There was no mention of motor damage by him, just bad gas problems and running rough and probably tune ups and cleaning carbs.
We as the boat owner can prevent all of this------Bradford Marine Mechanic----Texarkana---He is super-- for those that knows Mark.

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He's correct, but no additive will stop the phase separation; that's just a physical chemistry situation. If you run ethanol gas in the newer motors, you need to change it at least every month--pref. every trip. That would be hard to do with the bigger gas tanks. For older motors (such as mine!), drive around 'til you can find non-ethanol gas, then treat it with a double rate of stabilizer.