Question: What should the fine be for an illegal fish? (length or creel violation)

Okay guys, enforcement is a popular topic on our forum here as well as a number of other hunting and fishing forums that I visit. As I am directly involved with local KDFWR officers in enforcing the game and fish laws in Kentucky, I thought that I would take a little survey:

What do you think should be the fine for either possessing one to three short fish or being over the limit one to three fish? Same question for a larger violation, say 10 to 20short fish or 10-20 over the limit.

Remember, each fish can be a separate charge.
Court Costs are around $175-180
General penalty range for the basic violation is fine of $50 to $500 unless there is a more specific charge that carries a different penalty.

So what about it guys, how much for a short fish???

RCO

To begin with, it would be great to take the settings of fines out of the courts and give them back to DNR to set. DNR catches you...they write the ticket, everybody knows the fine, and you go pay it...no courts. Just see the judge. That way the good ole' boys dont get off scott free and the rest pay the penalties. As far as how much? Doesnt really matter as long as everyone gets the same fair treatment once caught IMO. A pat on the backside (or spank on the hand) doesnt get the job done.

How's that for not answering your question?!?:confused::D:D:D

I was checked by Rory Flynn a few years ago and he was really checking the fish. He was doing a full length creel survey. I had 18 fish that day and he showed be one that he said was short so I put it back in my checker and it showed right on the line at 10 inches and I asked him to show me his check and it came up 1/16 of an inch short.In his opinion I had a short fish and he could of wrote me a ticket but he did not. Short fish or too many fish is both illegal in my opinion.

INO $50 a fish is fine for first time offenders. Fines for repeat offenders should be steeper. Maybe $100 a fish the second time caught and if you are dumb enough to get caught a third or more time start taking poles, equipment and even boats.

First fish should be $200 with an additional $50 a fish for each fish under the legal length limit. If the individual is caught with 5 or more fish under the legal length limit the fine per fish should be doubled. Max fine $2000.

$200 min. fine for over the limit, with an additional $50 per fish for everyone over 21. I other words 1 fish is gonna cost you $200, every 1 after that is $50 a piece. For instance. The fine would be $200 for the first fish and another $50 a piece for the remaining 4, total $400 fine plus court cost. If the individual is caught with over 5 fish over the limit the fine should be doubled. Max fine $2000

Repeat offenders should have their fishing privileges suspended for a minimum of 2 years.

Make it hurt!

$100 fine+ct costs on the 1st fish, double the fine on the 2nd, 3rd would double again and so on. Make it stiff and then get stiffer. The 3rd fish should also carry community service too. Something like Fish cleaning station attendant with labeled coveralls. Maybe even boat ramp attendant with labeled coveralls. I think the humility thing rocks, let everybody know who the violaters are. Because they're really thiefs, cause they are stealing from all of us.

Be glad when the weather breaks where we can talk about fish we caught instead of whats on here now...
Guess it's a good time to clear the air..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wiskers

First fish should be $200 with an additional $50 a fish for each fish under the legal length limit. If the individual is caught with 5 or more fish under the legal length limit the fine per fish should be doubled. Max fine $2000.

$200 min. fine for over the limit, with an additional $50 per fish for everyone over 21. I other words 1 fish is gonna cost you $200, every 1 after that is $50 a piece. For instance. The fine would be $200 for the first fish and another $50 a piece for the remaining 4, total $400 fine plus court cost. If the individual is caught with over 5 fish over the limit the fine should be doubled. Max fine $2000

Repeat offenders should have their fishing privileges suspended for a minimum of 2 years.

Make it hurt!

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And fishing while your privileges are suspended should be another hefty fine and an even longer suspension.

And all the fines go to enforcement of fish and game laws.

A hunter/fisherman education class would be a nice requirement before violators could get a new license. With tests.:cool:

And you release your entire catch and lose fishing privileges for 24 hours for any violation more than a single fish or fraction of an inch. This would hit some folks much harder than the fine. Especially people who think their wealth makes them immune from following rules and regs.

1 or 2 fish or a fraction of an inch short should get you at least a written warning, and possibly a record on some kind of system so officers would know who pushes the law.

I kept a fish that was short by 1" a couple of years ago. We were on them pretty good, and I guess I measured it, saw it was short and put it in the well instead of over the side in my hurry to get back to fishing. Luckily it was still lively at the ramp and I didn't get checked. So it can be an accident.:o

Thanks for the responses. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to really reply.

For the record, I agree with buffalo13. I watch a lot of topics like these come up on several forums. Our forum is generally more civil than some. One that I use to advertise my hunting lease on is so rude, it looks more like Topix than a family forum. With all of the threads and posts about the Townhalls and the regulation proposals, I thought I would see what people really wanted.

As far as gabowman's concerns, your solution interesting and would work really well in certain parts of Southern Russia where the duck hunting and fishing is good. Here in the US, the Constitution is a bit of an impediment to such frontier justice. Seriously though, that is not particularly an issue in my neck of the woods. My County is in Western Kentucky but does not border KY lake. We deal much more frequently with hunting violations. As such, most of our fishing violations are license/safety (lights and vests) and probably are written to bank fishermen on the river or sloughs ponds way more than people with "deep pockets". I can tell you that the average person who gets caught fishing without a license in our District truly suffers from paying the court cost alone, much less the fine. I remember a "good ole boy" who got a ticket once for fishing without a license at a pond with his 6 year old kid. He was reeling in a fish with the child's Snoopy pole when the officer walked up. Only one pole. Should that result in $380 in fines and costs assessed in the field? No matter how good it sounds to say "treat everyone the same" its really not justice. I have to look at each case and each set of facts and make my decisions accordingly.
Our most substantial fishing violation in the last few years involved a local man who was using a commercial shocker purchased on the internet and tried to throw it in the river when he got caught. He had a few catfish, but no gamefish. He was a "pretty good ole boy" but I doubt he felt like he got any breaks when he paid a large fine, lost his fishing rights, and lost a $4000 boat.

As I said, we mostly get violations on waterfowl and deer. The duck hunters don't seem too happy to face fines, costs, and loss of their $1000 Super x 2's and Benelli's for floating a fourth shell, plug out, or having lead shot or a duck or two over the limit.
Since Kentucky has basically got a bounty on the heads of does, doe violations are pretty nominal, but woe be unto the sucker who has any buck violation or trespass/hunt without permission violation. The deer hunters really seem glum about $500+ in fines/costs, loss of guns and sometimes four wheelers, loss of trophy and hunting privilege for 1-3 years, and probated jailtime.

We do use a great deal of community service on the public areas and have worked with shooting sports and the public shooting range maintenance in lieu of fines or forfeitures. It all depends on the facts, attitude of defendant, criminal history or lack thereof, and overall circumstances.

Anyway thanks for the posts and keep em coming.
RCO

The Court (at least the Judges I prosecute in front of) do a good job of backing up any disposition that I recommend. I rely primarily on the recommendation of the officer, but the facts do dictate the outcome in each case. For every evil, rotten, nasty violater I run across, I can assure you that he or she has a whole host of people who think they are worthy of mercy. In truth, more mercy is shown in most average assault, disorderly conduct or other general misdemeanor cases than in F an G cases. The officers are only able to monitor a fraction of the activity, so the penalties are generally tougher to keep people at least a little fearful of the outcome.

I really like whisker's idea, realize though that its up to the courts/judges to realize the impact poor fishing could have on our recreational revenues and actually stick it to the violators, not just make em show up and pay court costs or even get off scott free by the good ol' boy system.

I am guilty of the short fish and over the limit too. I have measured fish and for what ever reason come up with a short 1 at the cleaning station. If the fish was still alive I tried to release it.

Gotta be careful with some of the fish measuring devices. Those little blacks (footballs) are stockier than the whites and will hang up in mine. You're looking at the tail end and sometimes will not notice the mouth is not touching. I have learned to make sure the fish is all the way in before calling him good.

Last year I had a day that I was over the limit. Didn't realize it till I got home. Got done cleaning my fish at the fish cleaning station, got home & started packaging the filets. I put 20 in the first bag. Got 20 in the 2nd bag and had 6 fillets' still in the sink. Thought I had miscounted the first bag. Started over and had same outcome. Dumped'um out and counted the fillets' and had 46. Anyway you figure it I cleaned 23. Found out that my counter had rusted up a little and was hanging up sometimes.

Either way if I had been checked I shoulda been fined. Might not have liked it, but it woulda been right.

Back several years ago I got a speeding ticket for 38 in a 35. I know for a fact that I was doing 35. I was looking at the speedometer when I passed the cop. BTW this happened in Cairo, Ill. (known speed trap for OOS vehicals). I was gonna fight it! Thought his gun was off. Argued with the guy! Went to my mechanic, told him the story and asked if he could check and verify my speedometer for court. He said "I don't have to check it. I can tell you right now your speedometer is off. You're running over sized tires." He then explained to me how the bigger diameter tires rotate at a slower speed than the regular tires that the truck was setup with.

Went to court, pleaded my case and paid the fine. :( I was told that ignorance was no defense.

No difference. Do the crime... Pay the fine. Good ol'boy or not.

I think there should be a BIG sign at every public boat ramp on Ky. & Barkley stating the limits AND the fines!!! Also publish the fines in the fishing & boating guide. No more of this "I didn't know" defense.

Hey Whiskers,
There was a guy on the internet who said he murdered someone a few years ago and got away with it. Well a few weeks later Knock,Knock who do you think was there. The man. They convicted him by his internet testimony . So if you mess that guy up at Medina River please do not say it here. I am sure we can come up with some bail money selling some crappie fillets!

Good points Wiskers. I think that if most of us are honest, we have all been there in one situation or another.

I've heard lots of defenses, but I've never had the "I didn't know the fine" defense. People rarely come in and say that they didn't know that it was illegal. Most of the defenses relate back to the assertion that "It was an accident" or "Its my first time or Ive never been in any trouble" or even occaisionally, "I was just trying to feed my family."

Lots of post use the phrase "good ole boy" and that really puzzles me. I see lots of people with some outdated idea of a "good ole boy" walk or break, but I can tell you that today that is just not the case much these days, especially in Kentucky. In fact, I am constantly amazed at the "good ole poor and rich boys and girls" who come in; plead guilty; pay enormous costs; and leave embarrased and contrite.

P.S.: I pay my speeding tickets and don't ask for breaks. You should have seen the looks on some of the faces in Traffic school when they saw me a few years ago.

RCO

There are several of us who have a deer lease in Liv. county. We have had trouble with poaching for years. We knew it was going on. Had an idea who was doing it. But couldn't catch the guy. Well I'm sure you heard about the guy they caught with all the deer & turkey in Liv. last summer. That was our poacher! Lives right across the road from our lease. It is my understanding that this is the 3rd time this guy has been caught. He winds up paying a little fine & gets a slap on the hand and he right back at it.

This guy should be serving time, pay a BIG fine, & loose some property (home)! We're not talking about 1 or 2 animals, we're talking dozens!

How do these guys get by with this stuff?!!!

I say smoke these guys rearends and publish the outcome in the local papers. Get the word out that we are done playing around.

I would like the same effort put into the fish side of the business as they do with the dove and water foul. They get serious about that stuff. Get caught with a plug out or baiting a dove field & you got trouble.

I will say that there was a Game Warden, I think his name was Jerry. I called in about 3 guys snagging spoonbill out of a boat. He jumped on that and got them.

Most of the CO's work off of tips. They spend very little time just driving around looking for offenders. In reality that is the most cost effective way to do it, but if you see a boat or a truck at the boat ramp it'll make ya think.

I've been checked 1 time in the last 20 year by a CO. I've been checked by the USCG 3 times for boat safety. I spend a lot of time on the lakes too.

I'm gonna start tell'n every fisherman I see to look out cause the Game Warden has been really watching this bay, no mattee where I'm fish'n. Make'um sweat alittle anyway. Might make them start throw'n some back.

Hey Whiskers i completely agree with you, make these people really sweat when they come off of the water with illegal fish and make them know that if i do get caught it is not going to be a slap on the hand and some of this stuff will stop. We all know that it is hard to completely enforce and we know that it is going to happen,but if you catch a few of them in a good spawning year then it could make a difference in fish populations. I have turkey hunted in the past in missouri and over there they have there wardens put on camoflouge and turkey vests and shotguns and they go into the woods and when you walk up on someone over there that you do not know it could very well be a game warden and when you think HEY!! I might kill two of these turkeys then you stop and think i wonder if there is a warden on the next ridge, no more of that stuff well when i get to the truck i will hide the turkey and make sure they are not there to check me, point is maybe the state of Kentucky needs to ummark some boats and put the wardens to crappie fishing and then the people breaking the laws will SWEAT more as they are doing these things.

I had not heard about your Livingston Co. case. It sounds bad. My advice on those issues is to make your thoughts known to your elected prosecutor. My constituents seem to have no qualms about calling me at home, at night, stopping me at church or grocery or anywhere to make their complaints known. I say that and I don't complain about getting these calls. I view it as a large part of my job to make the penalties consistent with what I think my jurys would assess. The statutes sets a wide range of penalties and it is the prosecutor's job to determine what the penalty is (unless there is a trial and then it is set by the Judge or Jury). I hunt and fish, so I know the perspective of the defendant, the CO, and the sporting public. MANY of your prosecutors and judges don't hunt or fish and they have ABSOLUTELY no idea how serious these cases are to their constituents. While it is unethical to try to talk to the Judge out of Court about a case, it is appropriate and reasonable to make your wishes known to your elected County Attorney. I have a unique situation in that the people who live on the East half of the County generally demand tougher enforcement and the people who live on the West half of my County generally want government less involved in their lives. I have to balance this public opinion in the decisions I make.

I know that my hunters and fishermen are tax paying voters in my County. As a group, they want strict enforcement (unless of course its a relative or friend LOL!) and they hold me accountable.

I also see your frustration on the lack of checking, especially when compared to safety checks. I remember when water safety was the principle responsibility of the KSP (Water Patrol). When F & G took this over, it really impacted the officer time. This is not the fault of the local and regional CO's and is an issue that comes from Frankfort down. While safety (equipement and alcohol) are important, it seems that the officers are required to spend an inordinate amount of their time enforcing this as opposed to wildlife issues.

I assume that the Jerry you refer to is the former law enforcement supervisor. I agree that he took care of business. He had two brothers who were also COs and they were all tough but fair.

Good points.
RCO

Maybe put mandatory signs at all the fish cleaning stations both public and resorts stating "BEFORE you beginning cleaning your catch, make sure you count and measure them one more time!"

I think signs at every ramp would be a good thing , with limits and size . Like Wiskers says none of this I didn't know .