Getting sick of sickles...

I don't know what to say or how to say but it's got to be said.... I'm starting to get sick of sickle hooks!!

Don't get me wrong... I love the concept of the hook and it works well! What I'm sick of are the hooks breaking. Now those that have been tying with these for quite some time already know that there are some quality control issues from the manufacturers overseas. But I swear, out of the last couple of hundred jigs I've tied up, I've had 27 hooks to break while STILL IN THE VISE!!!

I'm even getting reports from folks I've sold jigs to stating that the hooks are breaking on them and I just hate putting out a product with my name on it when I know these issues exist.

But a thought hit me.... would one color of sickle hook be stronger and more reliable than that of a different color? Is the black chrome stronger than the red or the bronze?

What do you think?

Where are you getting your hooks? I bought 1000 of them some time ago from Cabela's and have never had one break.

AW, We went through this issue about a month back. One color would not have anything to do with the breakage, Skip has had this problem with the breakage. He sent me the hooks and I sent them to the owner of Matzuo. I get my hooks straight from Matzuo and have never had a hook break on me.
Where are you getting your hooks from? The hooks are made in Korea and then sent to China to get packaged.
If you could save me the broken hooks,I mean all of them! If you have the box they came in I need that also.
The breakage comes down to the temp in the heat treatment of the hooks. They use a sand bed.
IM me and we can discuss this more. I will try to get your broken hooks replaced for you

Try ordering from [email protected] ( ebay seller too) I use him, and a local tackle shop here in West Monroe does also in which was owned by a crappie guru. (Bobby Phillips, The Honey Hole) Been pretty good hooks. I've had no problems.

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Originally Posted by AWMiller

I don't know what to say or how to say but it's got to be said.... I'm starting to get sick of sickle hooks!!

Don't get me wrong... I love the concept of the hook and it works well! What I'm sick of are the hooks breaking. Now those that have been tying with these for quite some time already know that there are some quality control issues from the manufacturers overseas. But I swear, out of the last couple of hundred jigs I've tied up, I've had 27 hooks to break while STILL IN THE VISE!!!

I'm even getting reports from folks I've sold jigs to stating that the hooks are breaking on them and I just hate putting out a product with my name on it when I know these issues exist.

But a thought hit me.... would one color of sickle hook be stronger and more reliable than that of a different color? Is the black chrome stronger than the red or the bronze?

What do you think?

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Most of the ones I broke tying were bronze so I ask for black now and I also bet the ones you are breaking are #4?

I have changed over a lot of stuff when I can convince them to use a #6 because when tying them they always seem to bend a bit easier. I don't know why, but they do.

I have got through the ones I bough that broke and have not had as many break lately. I did break one yesterday, but it was not from a new batch. I think there was some heat treat trouble at some point that made a lot of bad hooks get on the market.

Now you know how I was feeling from Jan-May, but the new jig heads I got were not near as bad about breaking.

I am pretty sure the I have not broke gold or black hooks yet as I remember. I do also use their regular bend hooks for that style hook when someone wants them and have not broke any of them yet.

It makes no difference who you buy them from and it just depends on what box they buy and I know Tommy Crenshaw has no idea if his are in that trouble or not and maybe he has been lucky with the ones he bought. I don't buy from him as every jig head I ever bought from him was loose and had to turn them into a pill head to tighten them. After our little trouble he would not reply to my messages.

Skip

I buy bronze ones from Tommy, # 4, not a problem yet. Pretty sure if they were breaking someone would have complained to him and he would know being that the best sporting goods stores buy from him in this area. I guess I just got lucky and got some of the good batch the past year.

Had some with over sized legs that I sent back to laserdoc, but if they know or can find what batchs of hooks were mis-tempered they should put out the lot numbers from the box's that went out and replace them.

This would go a long way towards comments on the internet.

Fatman

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Originally Posted by AWMiller

I don't know what to say or how to say but it's got to be said.... I'm starting to get sick of sickle hooks!!

Don't get me wrong... I love the concept of the hook and it works well! What I'm sick of are the hooks breaking. Now those that have been tying with these for quite some time already know that there are some quality control issues from the manufacturers overseas. But I swear, out of the last couple of hundred jigs I've tied up, I've had 27 hooks to break while STILL IN THE VISE!!!

I'm even getting reports from folks I've sold jigs to stating that the hooks are breaking on them and I just hate putting out a product with my name on it when I know these issues exist.

What do you think?

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I just bought mine from a guy who deals directly with the manufacturer. They were black nickle or chrome nickle. I have similar issues. I did not want to use these hooks from past experience. AWMiller I sympathize with you as I'm in a similar situation. I have an excellent product, and it's a shame I cannot rely on a hook to do the job. I don't want my name to be associated with an excellent jig but hooks don't last. It got down to me telling my customers that I will not guarantee hook breakage if they insist on these hooks. I don't tie jigs, these are going straight into a mold and being poured. I was getting complaints from customers about breakage when they were using them. It's a shame you have to tell customers of possible problems. I do this only for several reasons, #1 I don't want people telling me about the problem later and #2 I don't want to be replacing broken jigs with hooks for free. That's a good way to lose a lot of money and customers. If they know upfront they can't complain to me. I don't expect anyone here to help me with this problem as I didn't buy these from anyone here. But this isn't the first time I've had this problem.....Just thought I would add to my displeasure with these hooks......................Oh well.

I have never used a sickle hook, land 90+ percent of the fish that bite my jigs with regular hooks, and probably avoid more hang-ups than I would with a sickle hook.

:cool::cool::cool:

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Originally Posted by OKSTATEjiggy

I have never used a sickle hook, land 90+ percent of the fish that bite my jigs with regular hooks, and probably avoid more hang-ups than I would with a sickle hook.

:cool::cool::cool:

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Oh I don't think there is any doubt that you will have more hang-ups with Sickle hooks.

Skip

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Originally Posted by OKSTATEjiggy

I have never used a sickle hook, land 90+ percent of the fish that bite my jigs with regular hooks.

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I totally agree with you on hooks, I use a lot of Eagle Claw aberdeen jig hooks, and lots of guys I know hate Eagle Claw, so it goes to show you. Yet I think they are sharper out of the box then their counterpart Mustad. Just my opinoin. I don't like to bash companies. They all have there place to everyone that uses them. I only mentioned my post, because of the problems I've had and I had to tell my customers to cover my credibility. We all have certain things we like and stick with.

I noticed a few posters were mentioning my jigs, so here's my story and take on them: I buy them in huge batches, like 10k at a time of each size, and then go about 3-4 months without ordering more. It's VERY likely I missed the bad batches due to this, as I have not had one single person who bought my jigs complain about breakage. I do feel they tend to bend more than break, but can easily be bent back with pliers.
As for snags, yeah, due to the sickle hooks design, a #4 sticks out far more than a standard #4 hook (i.e. Mustad). I myself downsize 1 hook size when using a sickle. I use #4's in Mustad's, but a #6 in sickles. I have not noticed a drop in hookup ratio.
As for the "loose" heads Skip mentions, and has over, and over, and over, and over ( I could keep going), you did not tell me they were lose or it was a problem until you "heard about it online somewhere." You then mentioned it wasn't a big deal. I told you once you painted them, they would no longer be loose. Guess you don't paint yours huh? That was like 2 years ago, with a VERY old mold, of which I have replaced with a Pro model mold. Perhaps this is the reason (your continuing putting down of my 1 time loose jig heads) is the reason I choose not to deal with you anymore.
Not to hijack this guys thread, but I have honestly got tired of you putting down 2 year old jigs that you claimed were not a problem, and you KNOW I literally ran myself out of hooks for you, and went 3 months without ANY in stock due to it. You can moderate the post if you'd like, since the truth is here, and you will probably erase it.

Thnx for the "other side of the coin" TCI Fishing Lures.

ridiculous... something must be done

I have been tying with the sickles for 4+ years now and broke two while tying.I prefer the black chromes then red's.Only time I use the bronze is when I'm pouring a bunch to get plated due to the cheaper price.The wider gap of the sickles catch's more fish in my opinion.I believe black chromes are stronger plus they don't rust like bronze.What hooks are being broken the most,bronze? You pay more for black chromes but to me they are worth it.Give them a shot,I know I'll keep using them.

I can solve all their problem's ,but I don't get paid by Matzuo for tech support I don't think You'll have problem's with hook's You get from Me.

I've bought many jigs from TCI and I can honestly say that only one hook broke and it broke in the vise. As far as loose heads, on the very first 1/32 jigs I got from Tommy, I had a few loose ones. Since then all have been great. I have no complaints and like his very fast service.

"gene"

I have yet to break any hooks ever. Bronze or any other color. All the colors are the same. The color does not make the wire any stronger,they are all the same.

I had a few gold break one time. And I think it was my fault. The Mold was bad hot and the lead was also warmer then it should have been. (Someone was pouring for me) I got him stopped and there was a lot of the ones that were way to hot in the mold. Well some of those broke. We have been selling Matzuo Hooks for a year, And have sold them from the smallest up to an 11/0 Sickle hook.
The only ones to break was the ones over heated in the mold. Next batch may break on me but have not yet.
Pete

I bought several from TCI and have been very satisfied. No more broke hooks than others I’ve used and no loose heads with mine. They are the stickiest jigs I have ever used.... they stick to carpet, tee shirts, fingers and of course the roofs of mouths. The downsizing 1 size is real good advice! Thanks Tommy.

Just talked to the owner of Matzuo(DON)
Aside from a bad lot and the change of factorys from China to Korea and the temp thing in the sand when they are heat treated. Something we overlooked and I beleive someone else metioned. the guys that are breaking hooks like AW. Are you pouring your own jigs or are you getting them from someone that pours for you. This whole problem maybe from the lead being to hot when you guys pour. If the lead is to hot your double heat treating them.This makes the hook brittle. I know when the lead is hotter that it pours better but this can also be the problem.
Skip//Could Phil be overheating his lead on some pours to make the lead flow better?

I have been watching this thread with some interest. I'm sure happy that the problem has been found.
Now if everyone will just avoid using these for poured jigs, the problem will dissapear. Illinoisgiller

I have made close to 8,000 jigs this year with no problem. I use soft lead only. Hard lead needs to be hotter and the mold gets hotter. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by buzzmanmo

I have made close to 8,000 jigs this year with no problem. I use soft lead only. Hard lead needs to be hotter and the mold gets hotter. Just my 2 cents.

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Buzzman may have hit the nail on the head. !! :eek:
To all you guys who pour,,,,are you using soft or hard lead???

laserdoc
What is the tempering temperature that matzuo uses?
The only problem I've had (out of ~8K hooks) was 1K#6 BZ hooks that had "Flat eyes". The 1K hooks were promptly replaced with #6 BC hooks at no charge.
As far as the breakage - haven't seen it. I would lean towards tying technique (too much pressure) except cadman said he has the breakage problem also.

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Originally Posted by LedHed

laserdoc
What is the tempering temperature that matzuo uses?
The only problem I've had (out of ~8K hooks) was 1K#6 BZ hooks that had "Flat eyes". The 1K hooks were promptly replaced with #6 BC hooks at no charge.
As far as the breakage - haven't seen it. I would lean towards tying technique (too much pressure) except cadman said he has the breakage problem also.

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Laserdoc, If you don't mind I also would like to know what their tempering temperture is if you can get that information. As far as hook breakage goes, the report I'm getting was from several customers. Not all hooks were breaking about 8-12 out of a box of 50. Maybe there was a mixed lot of hooks don't know. As far as the lead being too hot, I find that answer to this problem incorrect. I maybe wrong in this response, but when you heat temper, doesn't the jig have to get red hot in order for tempering to occur? You will never get a lead pot with lead in it that hot to allow tempering. I would agree to that statement if you left a hook in a lead pot for an 8 hour pour. Everyone that pours puts the hook in, pours the lead and takes the jig out all of about 5 seconds max. My lead mix is 60/40. 60% hard and 40% soft. Also if you prep your lead, flux it and heat your mold hot, use a release agent, you can pour hard lead at lower temps. You just have to know what you are doing when pouring hard lead. All molds aren't made the same, and all molds like round, minnow and pony heads will pour easily with hard lead since there are no intricate details in the molds. All of the molds mentioned above are about 90% of what everyone uses here for crappie jigs. I personally think that this is a quality control issue at Matzuo. Anyway its no big deal to me since I don't use these that often and when I do there is a disclaimer with every package of jigs I sell that use these hooks. Thanks for any help.

I'll break it down real quick with 30 year's in the aircraft and tooling industries' there's a very few alloy's that harden with more heat applied this is called a h condition the problem with tempering is that that if the quinch bath is not even you'll have un-even result's most manufacture's in the heatreating industries use heated oil baths ,molten salt baths or molten lead baths some use heated water baths with poly substrate's added for large pieces of 4340 or simular carbon alloys I personally put My hook's in small pot pie pans and draw them for 1 hour at 475 deg. in the oven I also have a commerical heatreat oven ,but You don't need one it could be some peoiple cold shot their pour's this is if the mold get's to hot to handle from rapid pouring they'll dip it in water hince they 1st area to become brittle is the part of the hook out-side the head area sand quinch's aren't the best ,but their the most practical for mass production of small parts You have to remember as long as Man is involved nothing is perfect You can only correct things with more inspection time thus making the cost rise I've worked with Enigineers from all branch's of the Armed Service's ,Boeing ,General Dynamics and Lockhead not to mention several major Tooling and Oil-field Company's and heatreat metal about 2-3 day's a week ,but I'm not an Authority on this there are people far more smarter than Myself it's just My 2 cent's worth.

lmbo...I told you Flat was Albert Einstein come back to be a crappiefishing/jig pouring/fishy inventions guy this go 'round. You guys figure this out sounds like it's way over my head anyway. I have a hard time with sudoku puzzles. I'll just tie my jigs and put my faith in Cadman and Flatfish to figure out the technical stuff and watch old Grubfarmer for all the crazy looking jigs he comes out with and his entertaining threads. I'll watch Ole giller and Jiggin joe for all their pointers on the micro stuff and spend all my time on the water asking the crappie and brim what they think about my jigs, heat treating, color combinations, hook breakage, the weather, Obama, and anything else that they want to talk about while they are deciding to bite or not. Like it has been said in here before, "I have spent alot of time fishing in my life, the rest of the time I totally wasted on things that were not nearly as fun or rewarding". Have a good one people and don't sweat the small stuff....we ain't gonna be here forever so go fishing today.......brim

Yeah I gotta agree with Cad here, there's no way a Lee pot and pouring into Do-IT molds is gonna re-temper a hook. I use a 2-1 mix in my really small heads 2 parts pure to 1 part hard and sometimes straight hard. Each mold is different in what it will accept to make great pours.

I've been pouring for alot of years started when I was 11 with help and graduated to pouring by myself and I'm 47 now. Now I haven't personally broken any while tying YET hope I don't. The only problem I found with the sickels is some of the leg lengths - from the eye to the first bend where the lead is molded on, some were WAY longer than others. I sent some to Laser to send back to show the problem, I've never had that with any other brand of hook.

Fatman

laserdoc

Have you had/heard of any more hook breakage? Where do these hooks break at?

The only hooks I have heard of breaking are from guys here. I have yet to have a single one break. I order my hooks straight from APEX who is the jumping off point here in the states for Matzuo.
They are owned by them and handle all the orders worldwide.

I use the Matuzo hooks also and I have never had one break.

Where are they breaking at on the hook and is it the same spot for the reported breakages????

I just got done reading this whole thread while i'm taking a break at work wishin' I was fishin'

Two years ago i decided to try sickle hooks. I pour my own stuff out of straight soft lead. I went to the coast and took some 1/16 1/0 heads with me to use on Speckled trout. I hooked a big red on the first day and snapped the hook in the process. Had the fish for a while, long enough to net it if I had a net. About a 10-12 pound fish, 10# line on a light drag. Second day, I snapped one after 6-7 Speckled trout.

I have used them since then with out snapping any and I have never had an issue with one while tying. I can also say that although I BEND one every now and then, I have never broke an Eagle Claw 571, Gamakatsu 604, or a Mustad 32746 BLN

This has been my experience with sickle hooks.

I'm a simple man and here's my thought. Growing up, I was always told DON'T GRAB THE TIP OF THE ROD, IT MIGHT BREAK! while fighting a fish. Why? Because instead of the whole bend of the rod sharing the load, one part is being stressed. To me this holds true to the design of the hooks and it's angle.

Again, my thoughts respectfully :)

If it has something to do with the temper of the hook, than I know it won't be long till someone has the right recipe.

I look forward to hearing more about this! :)

To me it's not a matter of replacing the broke hooks, it's the lost fish.

put me down as a satisfied customer of TCI. I really like
the sickle hook. I fish a lot more than I tie. I use the
hooks for both tied jigs and plastic heads. I fish brushpiles
with 20lb braid , I hang up often and almost always get my jig back. You will break a few hooks with the braid, but not many.

MO