CJ WATER TEMPS AND FISHING THREAD!

[flatheadking06]

Jeremiah, you and I are friends, thanks for the Adult conversation and discussion, I feel as friends we can discuss things even if we differ on some things!
I think you are correct on most all of your statements...you are correct the State can balance the deer population by increasing tags, etc, and by opening up land...deer are not on Grant road anymore, because they are on the east side of CJ where no hunting is allowed, last time Dale and I went out to check the ice, there were 3 different herds from the Marina, back into the campgrounds, they all move into the fields in the summer, when they are safe...'Yotes, cull the young and Old deer until the herds are in balance, then female 'yotes have fewer pups, or the families are culled by nature. Right now they are producing extra pups due to the OVER ABUNDANCE of Prey. They Prey has just moved to safer areas and the predators have followed!
Just out in my area, there are over 20 herds of deer, from Rt 72 to Rt 68 (East and West) from I70 to the Clark/Greene border...and all of this land is no hunting. I have had 14 Turkeys at a time feeding in my backyard bird feeders.
Animals like humans, pretty much know where they are safe...the reason for the infestation my area, is that all the land IS NO HUNTING and all the farmers hunt predators, because "they are bad"!
Once everything becomes STABLE again, the 'yote population will cull itself...this ALWAYS HAPPENS in Nature! WE (Man) ruin the balance by trying to play God, instead of letting it play out!

Had someone ask me why we play God at CJ....CJ was a MAN-MADE lake that was designed by idiots with no foresight! So instead of just having a bowl that held water and had massive swings in the fishery, a bunch of fishermen, did their best to improve a fishery that the State botched in the beginning. And we did it to benefit the whole dang fishery and everyone, not just to make honey holes! WE WORKED WITH NATURE TO HELP BALANCE CJ...NOT AGAINST IT!

You hit the nail on the head! Nature always finds a way to balance, I believe this whole heartedly. Mother Nature has a funny way of showing it sometimes i.e. natural disasters, but it will always work out.

Nothing wrong with being adults and having controversy over a subject... Its human nature lol.

And you are correct, the deer have moved into areas where they feel safe, and "man" has seen this as a decline in numbers instead of refocusing and understanding the population has just shifted. To say there is an over abundance of game, well I still have mixed thoughts. Deer were unheard of in the 80s in clark county. If you saw 5, man you were doing something! Over the last 3 decades the population has exploded, literally, and with deer being a creature of "edges" they can be found most everywhere nowadays. Very adaptable animals! But simply stating they are still there just not in area a but in area b doesnt solve the predatory problem. And vis versa, killing all the coyotes in an area where deer were prevalent doesnt do any good either. The state needs to come up with a system where these "over populated" areas can be hunted via a lottery system. This process has been in use and is still bein used today in metro areas around dayton to help curb the over populated areas. Huffman dam area, aroun wright pat and several other areas of the 5 river metro park area have this lottery system in use an I can only assume it helps with the deer control but I for know the statistics. If land owners, in areas where the state legislation allows, would open their land to hunters, they wouldnt have to complain about over abundance of deer and other game animals. By breaking that natural barrier where deer feel unthreatened and get them reintroduced into the reality of a balance ecosystem, they wouldn't congregate heavily in those areas where they are deemed over populated and then there would be no need for all the 'yote killers. Looking back through the years though, trappers were an essential element to the foundry of this nation... Some bagging over 1000 critters including coyotes a season... It was a means of living back then. Too often today, people seek hunting/fishing as a means of a trophy expedition and lose sight of what these privileges were traditionally used for- sustainability. But sometimes natures way needs a helping hand. For example, the wild/feral hog issue most states are finding now. These hogs are devastating to the local indigenous species and eat anything they can fit in their mouths. In almost every place the hogs can be found, coyotes and other natural predators are present but they arent controlling the population and the hogs are taking over all while driving the natural wild game out of the area. If left unchecked, the only game available would be the hogs. So should they be left alone to just let Mother Nature do her thing? Absolutely not! Just as the coyote issue we have at hand. Again I dont believe just going out and shooting everyone of them you see is the solution to the problem, but rather having the state come up with an alternative to get natural prey back into the area the belong will help reduce coyote occurrences.

[flatheadking06]

The Insurance compnys want the deerherd reduced. My thoughts just for laughs. CjP

No Fritz you are right on track! There are so many factors the DNR takes into account when making the yearly regulations and bag limits... Insurance companies definitely have a hand in persuasion on the subject... Just as farmers, landowners, development companies, and the auditors office...

[Flannel_Carp]

Here is a relevant (not to the thread but current discussion) quote from a book I recently read:

“We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.…I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.” - Aldo Leopold

Take it for what it's worth. He was a very interesting individual and I highly recommend looking into him and his story if you have free time.

[easytobeme03]

Some areas in the state allow urban hunting to thin animals in residential areas.

[flatheadking06]

Some areas in the state allow urban hunting to thin animals in residential areas.

True but now that has been restricted to only a few counties

[flatheadking06]

Here is a relevant (not to the thread but current discussion) quote from a book I recently read:

“We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.…I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.” - Aldo Leopold

Take it for what it's worth. He was a very interesting individual and I highly recommend looking into him and his story if you have free time.

Here lies the problem.

Man has played God in the reduction of the deer population. The predatory population is still at or above its normal level for said deer population befoream had a hand in it... Now there seems to be an abundance of predators that need controlled, unless someone steps in and helps reduce the predator population, to balance out with the current deer population we are going to stay right where we are and have the same issues 20 yrs from now.

With the above passage, love it! It is truly what people need to realize, I completely understand it, but that passage seems to be from an era where there didnt seem to be an issue with deer population, rather the "want/desire" to keep the deer as free of natural predation as possible. With fewer deer and an incline in natural predators things cant get better. As Brent said, yes the deer are there, but not where they are supposed to be. Deer arent supposed to be heavily populated on the outskirts of suburbia springfield, so where the deer go, the over abundance of predators such as coyotes will follow and then the never ending cycle continues... Coyote sightings in city back yards, claims of attacks, pet/livestock predation... It all goes hand in hand.

A bit off the coyote topic, but several large states out west and even some in the New England states have removed wolves off the endangered species list and considered opening a hunting season because they have bounced back so tremendously they are beginning to seek food outside their normal diets of deer and elk. Its a big hoopla as many conservationists are beginning to worry about current populations of elk herds and deer herds and the towns are worrying about livestock and for their own safety. Should they be left alone to left nature cull the pack?

[cjpolecat]

You hit the nail on the head! Nature always finds a way to balance, I believe this whole heartedly. Mother Nature has a funny way of showing it sometimes i.e. natural disasters, but it will always work out.

Nothing wrong with being adults and having controversy over a subject... Its human nature lol.

And you are correct, the deer have moved into areas where they feel safe, and "man" has seen this as a decline in numbers instead of refocusing and understanding the population has just shifted. To say there is an over abundance of game, well I still have mixed thoughts. Deer were unheard of in the 80s in clark county. If you saw 5, man you were doing something! Over the last 3 decades the population has exploded, literally, and with deer being a creature of "edges" they can be found most everywhere nowadays. Very adaptable animals! But simply stating they are still there just not in area a but in area b doesnt solve the predatory problem. And vis versa, killing all the coyotes in an area where deer were prevalent doesnt do any good either. The state needs to come up with a system where these "over populated" areas can be hunted via a lottery system. This process has been in use and is still bein used today in metro areas around dayton to help curb the over populated areas. Huffman dam area, aroun wright pat and several other areas of the 5 river metro park area have this lottery system in use an I can only assume it helps with the deer control but I for know the statistics. If land owners, in areas where the state legislation allows, would open their land to hunters, they wouldnt have to complain about over abundance of deer and other game animals. By breaking that natural barrier where deer feel unthreatened and get them reintroduced into the reality of a balance ecosystem, they wouldn't congregate heavily in those areas where they are deemed over populated and then there would be no need for all the 'yote killers. Looking back through the years though, trappers were an essential element to the foundry of this nation... Some bagging over 1000 critters including coyotes a season... It was a means of living back then. Too often today, people seek hunting/fishing as a means of a trophy expedition and lose sight of what these privileges were traditionally used for- sustainability. But sometimes natures way needs a helping hand. For example, the wild/feral hog issue most states are finding now. These hogs are devastating to the local indigenous species and eat anything they can fit in their mouths. In almost every place the hogs can be found, coyotes and other natural predators are present but they arent controlling the population and the hogs are taking over all while driving the natural wild game out of the area. If left unchecked, the only game available would be the hogs. So should they be left alone to just let Mother Nature do her thing? Absolutely not! Just as the coyote issue we have at hand. Again I dont believe just going out and shooting everyone of them you see is the solution to the problem, but rather having the state come up with an alternative to get natural prey back into the area the belong will help reduce coyote occurrences.

It ain't all good though, look what mother nature did to meCJP

[cjpolecat]

The 'yote poulation is growing for a reason...once things equalize, so will the population...man, just continues to mess up the balance that Mother Nature has in place...if we left things alone and quit trying to play God, we would be better off!
Don't let you young children run the "back 40" alone, keep you pets inside at night and not running free, keep you chickens in protected coops at night, bring your livestock in and get trained flock dogs (like in the old days).
Then leave things alone to re-balance...we have too many deer, too many rodents (coons, groundhogs, vols, rabbits, etc), too many feral animals, and too many idiots that are too lazy to take minimal precautions, because it would take a few extra minutes of their time. But then they'll spend hours upon hours spending time away from the families, killing predators that are needed to equalize things, because deer and rodents are cute, and 'yotes are destroying the farmers livelihood!lol It's been proven that deer, rodents, etc, cause more damage to farmers income than anything else, so the basis for farmers "Predator Killing" is false!
And I know what I'm talking about, I was born and raised in South Chuck and live out in the County! But that's just my opinion and "everybody has one"!
Dale and I watched 40 deer last night cut through my backyard, out looking for food! I killed 22 coons last summer that were destroying my gardens, etc, over 30 squirrels, 15 'hogs, countless mice, on my little 2 acres across from a woods...that's just because they are way too many...and the damn farmers in the area keep killing the predators...amazing!
There, that's my rant for the day!

Never mentioned anything about the wife.. CJP

[INTIMIDATOR]

Never mentioned anything about the wife.. CJP

I still wish Mother Nature would Cull her also!

[INTIMIDATOR]

And yes Jeremiah, if left alone the 'Yote population would lower itself...the bad thing about man culling any herd, is that he does not know when to stop and leave things alone! Man figures if killing 1000 is good 10,000 is better...remember the Buffalo, Grey Wolf, Big Cats, Whales, etc, etc, etc.
Once the food (deer, rodents, etc) population lowers in an area, the predators will move to where it is high (which right now, is on the fringe of humans)...once the predators stabilize the population, their numbers ALWAYS DROP! That is Mother Nature's Way!
Man is lazy and not patient...we refuse to do what is right, we do what is easier for us...it's easier to let your pets run wild, your kids to run wild, your herds to free roam, same with your poultry...responsibility is a inconvenience, it is easier to blame a predator and eliminate it, than to work with nature.
We have screwed with Nature so much, she is going to bite us in the butt soon...invasive species (fish, snakes, wild boar, etc), super "bugs", Wolf/Coyote/dog hybrids, Poor water management, genetic crops/feed/meat, poor farming techniques, environmental and weather changes etc.....MAN, ARE WE IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING!
But, we'll find something to blame it on, because Man is never wrong...we are the ultimate Species...But somehow Mother Nature always manages to show us how small we really are, and that she is still our Master!

Flannel
I have read Aldo...he understands...I do my best to try and understand my impact, and I also try to balance that impact as best as I can. I also teach my son things that should be taught...the young need to understand to respect Nature along with the other things in life...they need to understand how they impact their environment and try to balance things out as much as possible.
The bad thing is that you are limited with what you can do, but doing anything is better than doing nothing.
Anyone that knows me can attest I am not a leftist nutcase, actually VERY conservative...I just want to leave things better for my son...and I don't think that is going to happen...it makes me sad, embarrassed, and ashamed...hopefully his generation is a better care-taker of Mother Nature than we were!