F&W care to chime in on this one?

Crappiepappy, Yep, I know about the Common, Grass, Silver, Bighead, Leather and Buffalo carp. I was replying about the Silver Carp. I think I've caught at least 2-50 of each of these, and the Silver are a lot different than the common Carp. This is the one I was talking about that I caught. I guess it's hard to admit, but I love trying to catch these things. They fight/run like a freight train. I am not in an area to catch the Asian carp, but these now seem to be a big problem.

Later, Jim

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Originally Posted by perchjerker108

Crappiepappy, Yep, I know about the Common, Grass, Silver, Bighead, Leather and Buffalo carp. I was replying about the Silver Carp. I think I've caught at least 2-50 of each of these, and the Silver are a lot different than the common Carp. This is the one I was talking about that I caught. I guess it's hard to admit, but I love trying to catch these things. They fight/run like a freight train. I am not in an area to catch the Asian carp, but these now seem to be a big problem.

Later, Jim

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:scratchhead ... Jim, the Silver Carp ARE one of the Asian Carp invaders !! What lake are you catching these things in ??

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Originally Posted by mrdux

My wife and I were in a cove on KY Lake early yesterday morning that was full of white and yellow bass chasing minnows. As we trolled thru the melee, there was the constant and unmistakable swirls and splashes of Bighead carp---all in the schools of minnows. We saw no Silvers jumping, just the glimpse of the carp up to 3-4 feet long and the swirls like I kicked my 112 Pound RipTide motor on just under the surface.

I keep hearing and reading that we have nothing to fear from the carp eating minnows or harming small fish. I just have a really hard time believing a 50 pound Asian carp that sucked in a mouth full of minnows is going to spit them out and move on to other food sources.

I want to believe we are being told the truth about the carp and their effects on fisheries but I keep seeing things with my own eyes that tell me different. Catching a couple of Silvers on crankbaits HOOKED DEEP IN THE MOUTH on the rear hook isn't a coincidence in my mind. Seeing Bigheads feeding right in the middle of white bass jumps isn't either.

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Hey guys, thats very interesting that you saw them there mixed in with the other species. In my professional opinion, I highly doubt that the carp were consuming any of the baitfish. If youve ever cut one open you can easily observe that their guts and mouths are not designed to consume fish, even small ones. No diet study, (of which there have been several, including one on ky lake) has found any fish in their guts. That being said, there was a recent paper published modeling the potential effects of asian carp introductions into the great lakes and they did include one model which simulated what would happen if the Asian carp did consume larval fish. (they predicted greater damaging effects when they eat larval fish) I don't personally know how it got published since there is no evidence supporting the idea that they eat larval fish, but I thought Id let you know about it.
There is also a theory that they will hold a fish in their mouths and attempt to knock off some scales or other particulates and consume them before spitting the fish out. This is speculative because its very hard to test for.
I have personally caught them in the mouth on swimbaits. I have also caught a paddlefish on a jug. In my opinion these are incidental hookings due to their open mouth feeding behavior.

you can test this yourselves next time you hook one or one jumps in. Remove the hooks from your crankbait and try to force it into the carps throat. If you manage to force it in, I encourage you to cut open the fish and observe its intestine (it will likely be damaged from the size of the lure)

This is good info amartin. Personally, I wont even get one in the boat to find out.

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Originally Posted by Amartinbio

Hey guys, thats very interesting that you saw them there mixed in with the other species. In my professional opinion, I highly doubt that the carp were consuming any of the baitfish. If youve ever cut one open you can easily observe that their guts and mouths are not designed to consume fish, even small ones. No diet study, (of which there have been several, including one on ky lake) has found any fish in their guts. That being said, there was a recent paper published modeling the potential effects of asian carp introductions into the great lakes and they did include one model which simulated what would happen if the Asian carp did consume larval fish. (they predicted greater damaging effects when they eat larval fish) I don't personally know how it got published since there is no evidence supporting the idea that they eat larval fish, but I thought Id let you know about it.
There is also a theory that they will hold a fish in their mouths and attempt to knock off some scales or other particulates and consume them before spitting the fish out. This is speculative because its very hard to test for.
I have personally caught them in the mouth on swimbaits. I have also caught a paddlefish on a jug. In my opinion these are incidental hookings due to their open mouth feeding behavior.

you can test this yourselves next time you hook one or one jumps in. Remove the hooks from your crankbait and try to force it into the carps throat. If you manage to force it in, I encourage you to cut open the fish and observe its intestine (it will likely be damaged from the size of the lure)

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Thank you for your reply.

Wrong thread Rich.

Thats a drum

It's been a busy day of sampling so I didnt get to reply fully earlier. One of the reasons that scientists dont believe they are eating fish is because those kinds of adaptations take several generations and their has to be a reason for them to be adapting. Currently these fish are very well adapted to eating plankton. Everything about them is designed to eat plankton efficiently. This design has made them into extremely good invaders who easily outcompete our native planktivores in most situations. A shift to eating fish would happen very slowly and might work something like this.

Hypothetically,

genetic variation in our bighead carp might mean that some of them have slightly bigger throat openings or slightly wider intestines. Those with that larger opening might be able to ingest some larval fish or eggs. Those fish that eat the larval fish would have to be more likely to survive than the other fish with smaller throats and intestines . Those large throated fish would then be more likely to pass on their genes to their progeny. Within the next generation, suppose that the ones with the largest throats were able to eat slightly larger larval fish and again survived longer and spawned more successfully than their smaller throated brothers and sisters. This trend would have to continue quite a while (years and years and years) for there to be any fish capable of eating a d20 or any of the baits Ive caught them on. All of this hinges on a need for them to adapt.

All of this being said, I have always been curious about observing for myself whether they might ingest some larval fish when the densities of larval fish are really high. During about a 3 week span each spring their are millions of small (<10mm) shad which might fit in their throats. No one has ever observed any fish in their guts and I believe the research, but seeing is believing so I may cut a few open myself! This would still be a far cry from them eating an adult or juvenile shad, but theres always a chance.

Hypothetically:

What if the mutation you mention should occur naturally? We all know of species that have changed ranges; ie coyotes, armadillos, even redears. I'm 60 years old and never knew redears existed until about 25 years ago when we started seeing clearer water due in large part to acquatic vegetation that TVA then, in their infinite wisdom, decided to kill off all the while swearing they were not spraying. Why not food sources if their chosen food became less available? Those who sought out new food sources would be most likely to survive, thrive, and procreate.

Should there be a few breeders who mutated and then spawned 2-3 times annually, how long would it be until we would be able to convince the powers that be that "Houston, we have a problem" and what would be the reaction of the powers that be? Imagine the horror that the fish we had been told for years was no threat was all of a sudden Frankenfish? It has happened elsewhere and with other species. That is the scenario that worries me the most. Zombie apocalypse would be nothing compared to the effect of such.

I never heard of an Asian carp 20 years ago.

Totally possible. A natural evolution toward that could theoretically happen, but this type of change is very different from a change in ranges. Certain species can definitely adapt to an abundant resource if other species aren't utilizing it effectively. In this case the carp would be moving from a feeding niche (plankton) which they can dominate, to a feeding niche they are terrible at (eating fish). This is theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely. it's also possible for other plankton feeding fish such as paddlefish. It's just really unlikely and would take something on the order of 100's of years.

I am sure that researchers will continue to perform diet analyses on Asian carp, so time will tell. I can tell you that the first researcher to show that they eat fish won't hide the results. Even finding one Asian carp with fish inside of it would be a guaranteed front page publication involving multiple appearances on the national stage. There is also no motive that I'm aware of for anyone to hide results showing that they eat fish, but there may be some motive that I'm not aware of. If anyone cuts one open and finds fish, let me know because I want to publish it!