For rushcreekoutdoor...I'll throw out the 1st question

[rnvinc]

First of all thanks to rushcreekoutdoor for agreeing to answer some questions about the KDFWR regulations...this could turn out to be a valuable asset to the KY subforum of CC....

There is obviously a lot of animosity from most of us here at CC about some people keeping and cleaning undersized fish....

My question actually pertains to the legal (I assume) practice that I see at Ky Dam Marina (and others I'm sure) of a fish cleaning station on the dock that allows fishermen to discard their cleaned fish carcasses back into the lake...

If a fisherperson was approached by a conservation officer at the cleaning station on the dock...how would one prove to a conservation officer (after the carcasses are discarded into the lake) that the fillets he's looking at came from a legal or non-legal sized fish...??

[rushcreekoutdoor]

I also assume that it is legal to discard the remains in the lake, so with that being said:

1. The only other real way to prove a short fish from a fillet is with a confession. You might ask the question: "Why would anyone confess?" I can tell you that it has amazed me how many people who are otherwise unchargeable will confess to serious offenses when under the stress of an interview by a CO or other police officer. Every week I see drug cases that come from people who consent to searches of their vehicle or property, while knowing that the evidence is there. Some of this can be attributed to fear. Some of it probably comes from a sense of guilt or a reluctance to lie or be obstructive. Sometimes it is a result of dealmaking, for instance perhaps the officer could charge 5 people but one "fesses up". A large percentage of the cases are made principally on confessions or admissions.

2. Admissions to witnesses. Absent a confession, an admission to you or another bystander is admissible and not prohibited "Hearsay." That being said, it is amazing how many people want to report someone (with that being the only evidence) under the condition that they not have to testify. They often view their responsibilty complete on the phone call reporting misconduct and "After that its your job to prove it." That is a wimpy attitude. IF you are not willing to testify, don't complain about the outcome.


Remember, Due Process and the Constitution still apply to F & G cases. Ultimately, the standard of proof of guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt. I can tell you this, in the near 16 years I have been a practicing attorney, the public jury pool idea of reasonable doubt has increased. Our Juries have been mesmerized by a ridiculous Hollywood idea of what is reasonable. CSI Miami has become CSI Ledbetter. Juries of reasonable people have come to demand outrageous standards of proof because of TV crap that is not real.
This CSI Effect as it has become known has greatly reduced our leverage to get tough penalties. I can't scare someone into pleading guilty if they know that juries will give them a lower penalty or find them not guilty. Also, you need to keep in mind that the national crisis of "animal rights or animal sympathy" has filled even our local rural juries that don't like hunters. This attitude of the general public is effecting jury verdicts every day.

RCO

[rnvinc]

I understand your points...and might I say I'm very impressed with detailed response you have given..you will definately be a valued asset here with your knowledge of the legal system and how it pertains to the regulations of the KDFWR....

Now back to the point of the proving to a CO that fillets are of legal species and size....

I am interested in building a portable cleaning station on my boat....where I could clean my day's catch out on the lake before returning to the ramp to go home ....for several reasons:
1. It eliminates the mess created at home where I don't have a good place for cleaning...
2. It eliminates the need for me to discard the carcasses at home....
3. The carcasses that I would return to the lake would be used by other wildlife...turtles, fish, etc...

I have seen where some people clean their catch at the boat ramp and throw the carcasses in the water at the water's edge but I believe this to be littering (unlawful littering I do not know) and I think this practice is unsightly and inconsiderate...

My idea of a portable cleaning station on my boat would allow me to put the carcasses into the lake in water deep enough not to be seen at the water's edge....similar to the cleaning station at the KY Dam Marina dock ....

As you can probably gather now my concern for this idea of a portable cleaning station on my boat .....is it legal? ...would would a CO say if he checked my creel after I had cleaned them?....

[rushcreekoutdoor]

Hmm, you were serious about the questions! This feels like Jeopardy. Okay, I will give it a try, Alex I'll take filleting regulations for $500.00

301 KAR 1:201 Section 2(9) which reads as follows:

(9) A person shall not remove the head or tail of any fish for which a size limit or daily creel limit exists:

(a) While fishing;

(b) On the shoreline; or

(c) While on the water.

The answer Alex???

What is "bad idea" unless you only plan to catch carp, drum, catfish, or other rough (or non-sport fish) that do not have a size limit or creel limit, and then want to dispose of the carcasses in the briny deep.
Now, if you fillet your crappie or bass off of the carcass and keep the carcass with head and tail intact, you would probably be technically legal, although you might raise some eyebrows.

This reg is rational and is consistent with similar regs for duck hunting, ie, you can breast out a duck or pluck it but you must leave evidence of species and sex. I hunted in Alaska in 2002 for caribou and they only allowed us to bone out the neck, loin and ribs, and all other meat had to remain on the quarters until we flew in from the bush.

RCO

(I feel like the CarTalk guys playing Stump the Chump)

[justinp61]

I guess that cleaning stations are not considered "on the shore line". No fresh fish shore lunches either.

[speckfinder]

I guess that cleaning stations are not considered "on the shore line". No fresh fish shore lunches either.

I never knew about the shoreline thing. I quess you need to keep the hulls until you get away from the shoreline.

[crappiedoc]

We've got very laws similar in Ks, the fish cleaning laws are basically to keep those anglers that would clean illegal fish in the boat to keep from getting caught with short fish or over-limit. C'mon sense prevails with education. Theres so many ways to "steal" fish that it's become an interesting topic. Almost unaffordable fines and humility prosecution are being proven deterants. But they'll still keep doing it. Imagine being at a boat ramp with people in orange coveralls that have lettering on them that says POACHER, Fish thief, cracker keeper or such and knowing the fines are STIFF. I know I wouldn't want to be continually judged by my peers in this form and I know most of you wouldn't either, its just not worth it. But it works better than incarceration in situations like this. Just my .02 worth.

[kycreek]

Any chance we ever get a 10" limit on crappie in our streams,creeks & rivers? It would have to improve the quality of fishing overall wouldn't it? I'd be all for it.

[rushcreekoutdoor]

:DExcellent point Crappiedoc. We do similar things with our community service in lieu of jailtime. We have done garbage pickup on county roads with some people having to pick up 50+ miles of county road. One even did a year in jail because he was "too good" to pick up 5 miles of road. And yes, I think people sit around and spend hours dreaming up ways to cheat, steal or violate. If they spent that time working, our economy would probably be great.

Now as to the boatside cleaning, it wouldn't probably be a problem for me cause I only keep 12" fillets so there wouldn't be any questions!:D

[rnvinc]

Hmm, you were serious about the questions! This feels like Jeopardy. Okay, I will give it a try, Alex I'll take filleting regulations for $500.00

301 KAR 1:201 Section 2(9) which reads as follows:

(9) A person shall not remove the head or tail of any fish for which a size limit or daily creel limit exists:

(a) While fishing;

(b) On the shoreline; or

(c) While on the water.

The answer Alex???

What is "bad idea" unless you only plan to catch carp, drum, catfish, or other rough (or non-sport fish) that do not have a size limit or creel limit, and then want to dispose of the carcasses in the briny deep.
Now, if you fillet your crappie or bass off of the carcass and keep the carcass with head and tail intact, you would probably be technically legal, although you might raise some eyebrows.

This reg is rational and is consistent with similar regs for duck hunting, ie, you can breast out a duck or pluck it but you must leave evidence of species and sex. I hunted in Alaska in 2002 for caribou and they only allowed us to bone out the neck, loin and ribs, and all other meat had to remain on the quarters until we flew in from the bush.

RCO

(I feel like the CarTalk guys playing Stump the Chump)

Well, there's surely no doubt in how that regulation reads....for my idea anyway...

Thanks RCO..I knew you were going to be a valuable asset here....

I guess I'll continue giving the post hole digger a workout in my wife's flower garden....:D